The "basics" are important

[JR 137]

So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)

2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict

3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

My bad, sorry about my post!! A different list...or is what JR posted, what you're asking for??

Yes

I love the “yes” response to a multiple choice question.

Me: “Honey, do you want to go to the Italian restaurant or the steak restaurant?”

My wife: “Yes.”

Me: Shakes head and walks away thinking “how is it someone with a degree in English has no clue how to speak English?”

That happens about 4 times a day on average. Different questions, same answer.

[TJ-Jitsu]

So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)

2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict

3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

My bad, sorry about my post!! A different list...or is what JR posted, what you're asking for??

Yes

I love the “yes” response to a multiple choice question.

Me: “Honey, do you want to go to the Italian restaurant or the steak restaurant?”

My wife: “Yes.”

Me: Shakes head and walks away thinking “how is it someone with a degree in English has no clue how to speak English?”

That happens about 4 times a day on average. Different questions, same answer.

I admit, I do this often..

But "yes" in the sense of do all of the above. Get some more material in this thread.

[singularity6]

So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

 

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)

 

2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict

 

3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.

Im going to be a little provocative here (imagine that....)

I would add the following to the end of those sentences:

"To my knowledge"

and

"So far"

And the conversation can take a rather dynamic course eh?

Then that's not a conversation. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

I think you’re misinterpreting my intentions or my posts- I’m merely trying to stimulate a conversation not put words in your mouth. When I suggest those two phrases I’m suggesting that absolute knowledge is something that is rare, perhaps not attained yet- so maybe we start to brainstorm about what we think those basics could be, what makes them “the basics” and what legitimizes that claim.

So let me rephrase. I always add those two phrases when I hear someone show, teach, or explain something. It still becomes a conversation, just not necessarily an opinion and it puts things into perspective. - what if I were to ask you to add those two phrases at the end of your statements? Would you have the same opinions then?

If I felt those additions were necessary, they'd be there already.

People have been trying to simply quantify and unify just about everything (laws of physics, biology, music, language, etc.) That has never, and will never happen. The more we learn about the world, the more complicated we realize things are. I don't think martial arts is an exception.

[bushido_man96]

So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

 

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)

 

2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict

 

3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.

I see what both of you are saying here. However, I do tend to agree with what TJ is getting at. In TKD, I classify basic kicks as front kicks, side kicks, and round kicks. Everything else I can build off these three kicks. In my limited BJJ experience, I would tend to believe that there are some BJJ basics out there that most instructors would agree on.

[TJ-Jitsu]

So what I find is that many people tend to repeat the phrase but perhaps with different wording. Even while saying it many have a difficult time demonstrating it or fully articulating it. I don’t say this solely in response to the comments on the thread, but to the numerous people I’ve asked this question of as well.

Finally if if they are indeed “basics” then people shouldn’t have a different list. Leads me to the following conclusions:

 

1: Those explaining don’t fully and completely understand what they’re trying to justify (or they’re unable to articulate it- which is still the same thing)

 

2:No one has set out to identify what these “basics” are at the core level, hence all the disagreement and conflict

 

3:The basics simply aren’t important and it’s a false statement

Different styles and different schools are going to have different basics. This is just human. Ultimately, I don't think it's important to have unification at the onset. With martial arts, it's the whole journey that matters, and in the end, you'll find some sense of unification, as it seems that's when the collection of principles merge.

Not everything fits in a nice little box. It's a big world out there, and sometimes you'll have to expect some grey area.

I see what both of you are saying here. However, I do tend to agree with what TJ is getting at. In TKD, I classify basic kicks as front kicks, side kicks, and round kicks. Everything else I can build off these three kicks. In my limited BJJ experience, I would tend to believe that there are some BJJ basics out there that most instructors would agree on.

I'll go a step further and say it doesn't matter if the instructors agree on it or not, much the same way that scientists don't have to agree on a theory for it to be valid....

[Tempest]

To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.

For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.

Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.

[TJ-Jitsu]

To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.

For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.

Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.

Now we’re starting on the same page...

[bushido_man96]

To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.

For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.

Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.

Now we’re starting on the same page...

So, TJ, since you started this up, I'm assuming you have an answer to your own question. As an instructor/trainer, what do you consider to be the basics of BJJ? Say its my first class, what should I expect to learn? And what do I expect to learn that first month to 6 weeks, as per the basics?

[TJ-Jitsu]

To quote one of my favorite people, the great thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not.

The fundamental techniques of Judo/Jiu-jitsu work, whether we agree on them or not.

For example:

There are 2 basic ways to escape mount. Either elbow escape to guard or trap and roll. That is because of the structure of the position and the realities of fighting from that position.

Now, we may disagree on which one is better, what you should do in specific circumstances, how you should counter certain attempts to stop the escape... etc. etc.

BUT, the structure of the position really only leaves 2 ways out that are consistent across body types, physiques, and size disparities in both directions.

Even the "Diving for a leg lock" options are just variations on those 2 escapes that let you catch the leg on the way.

Now we’re starting on the same page...

So, TJ, since you started this up, I'm assuming you have an answer to your own question. As an instructor/trainer, what do you consider to be the basics of BJJ? Say its my first class, what should I expect to learn? And what do I expect to learn that first month to 6 weeks, as per the basics?

The basic moves would be your bridge and your hip escape. You could argue stand in base but that's not really a move as much as its the same as the previously mentioned techniques done from a different angle.

What I'd most likely expose you to is these two moves and that's usually taught from mount. Beyond that you'd also most likely learn the scissor sweep and how to posture from inside the guard.

My focus though was WHY these are the basics and how I can justify them. Firstly let me say knowing them isnt a "yes" or "no" thing as much as its a spectrum.

For example, to ask someone "do you know jiu jitsu/bump and roll/hip escape?" isnt the most appropriate question as much as "HOW WELL do you know jiu jitsu/bump and roll/hip escape?"

That in itself opens up a whole different can of worms as to what an "absolutely" correct way of doing a bridge and hip escape is....

[Tempest]

Why are they the basics? Easy enough. They are the most powerful moves you can make from those positions. They make the best use of your muscles in the most efficient manner to overcome your opponents superior leverage.