Hypothetical Questions for Instructors

[MatsuShinshii]

One of your senior students was responsible for a large part of your student body. They are very popular and other students (friends of theirs and friends of theirs and so on to family members) joined only because they were there. Your class size has grown 10 times and cash is pouring through the dojo doors. This ratio makes up 96% of your student body and many of your original students left do to the changes. Oh and your organization has recognized you for your growth and given you a promotion because of it.

What would you do as an instructor if...

1. this student made demands for promotion, threatening to leave and take the other students elsewhere if you didn't comply.

2. went behind your back to gain favor and backing to start their own school and openly told you that they were taking your students.

3. This student thinks that another way is better and uses their influence to get all of their friends to vote against you and force you to change the way you teach. Lets use promotions as an example. More testing times (lets say two a month), more grades (belts) so they can feel like they have promoted faster, easier requirements, less time training in a particular curriculum and more time in another that everyone prefers, etc.

4. goes behind your back and gains favor directly from your organization and tries to take over sighting that 96% of your students side with them over you and if they leave your students will leave with them.

5. wants a position or partnership in your school, again threatening to take your students with them and leave if you refuse to comply and threatens to out you as a fraud who unjustly took a promotion for class attendance that they brought to you. Thus ruining your reputation within the organization and your credibility within the city.

I was reading an article about hostile take overs in business and thought this might be an interesting thing to pose to you and see what you would do. I'll hold my comments for a while although I'm sure by now most know what I would say.

I'm more interested in hearing what you all would do if put into this type of position. By the way it's a true story with a few changes (although not related to MA or students) and it ended not the way you might think.

[sensei8]

What would you do as an instructor if...

1. this student made demands for promotion, threatening to leave and take the other students elsewhere if you didn't comply.

Expulsion for cause!!

You want to demand me? In my own dojo? You've lost your every loving mind!! You apparently don't know me!! Any promotions MUST BE EARNED THROUGH ME!!

Threatening to leave and take the other students elsewhere!! There's the door!! I'm not moved by threats!! GO... YOU'VE JUST BEEN EXPELLED FOR CAUSE!! Students come and go, so go, all of you; don't let the door kick you where you sit!!

2. went behind your back to gain favor and backing to start their own school and openly told you that they were taking your students.

Take those who blindly believe you with you immediately. Through the front door, you and them, will find a new horizon, so go seek, and feed your egos like no one else can. Oh, btw, I won't miss any of you!! See you...wouldn't want to be you!! EXPELLED FOR CAUSE!!

3. This student thinks that another way is better and uses their influence to get all of their friends to vote against you and force you to change the way you teach. Lets use promotions as an example. More testing times (lets say two a month), more grades (belts) so they can feel like they have promoted faster, easier requirements, less time training in a particular curriculum and more time in another that everyone prefers, etc.

They're assuming a position that they do not possess!! I run the Kyuodan Dojo, and only I run the Kyuodan Dojo. Therefore, your vote is nullified by my presence alone.

Again, any promotion has to be earned through me!! To be promoted, one first has to apply, then be accepted by the Hombu before any student can be allowed to attend any Testing Cycle!! You can't vote me out because I am the proprietor...owner...CI of the Kyuodan Dojo...me, myself, and I!!

You want to test much more often? NO WAY!! The Hombu sets the Testing Cycle dates, period, and they're non-negotiable. You want more grades (belts)?? No, that too is set by the By-Laws, as created by Soke!! Easier requirements?? To get that, you better find another dojo and/or style of the MA. Less training time?? Sure, better yet, just don't train at all; see how far that will get you!!

Yeah, I tell you what!! Quit the Kyuodan Dojo and take as many of my students that you think that you can, and start your own dojo where you can be whatever you want to be!! Just leave me out of the whole darn thing!! EXPELLED FOR CAUSE!!

4. goes behind your back and gains favor directly from your organization and tries to take over sighting that 96% of your students side with them over you and if they leave your students will leave with them.

Bad try!! The Hombu doesn't interfere with affiliated dojo's internal politics and the like in any shape, way, and/or form. It's pretty assumptive of you and them across the board. Let's say you do, ok, then all of you are expelled forthwith, and the Hombu, for being idle minded, can take a long walk on a very short pier, as far as I'm concerned. I started the Kyuodan Dojo by myself with NO STUDENTS...I can do it again and again and again!! EXPELLED FOR CAUSE!!

5. wants a position or partnership in your school, again threatening to take your students with them and leave if you refuse to comply and threatens to out you as a fraud who unjustly took a promotion for class attendance that they brought to you. Thus ruining your reputation within the organization and your credibility within the city.

Ha, that's a laugh!! You want a position or partnership of Kyuodan Dojo? NOT IN A TRILLION BILLION MILLION YEARS!! I own the Kyuodan Dojo...me, myself, and I, in which I've no desire to be in business with the likes of you!!

Proof is on the floor!! My reputation is solid and in tact; has been, and will be, way after you've faded away as a bad memory. Oh Yeah, you're expelled forthwith!!

I've refused promotions from the Hombu before; nothing new to me, and it's well documented!! Again, bad try!! I'm complete in my totality!!

Btw, the word "you" isn't YOU MatsuShinaii, it's the hypothetical "You"!!

[JR 137]

I’d easily say to leave. Let’s just say you cave this time. It’s only a matter of time before the next series of impossible demands.

If the dojo owner is afraid that the student is going to go over his head and report lies to the honbu, then sit down and have a conversation with him, while recording it unbeknownst to him. It’s not that difficult to do in this day and age of smartphones. “Ungentlemanly?” Sure. But remember that ungentlemanly behavior thread? I’m sure the higher up would like to hear him doing and saying these things in his own voice. I’d truly hate to go that far, but if I felt I absolutely needed to, I’d have that trump card in my pocket as a last resort.

One other thought - I’d consult with the higher ups long before he did, explaining the entire situation. Once he went to them, they’d be fully knowledgeable about the situation. I do this whenever necessary at my job. I’ve gone to my boss many times explaining a situation long before it mushrooms into a bigger problem. It’s usually a “ok; keep me updated” type response. Sometimes it’s a “do this in the meantime” response. As a private school teacher, I deal with students and more often parents who think they can dictate how I do things. Quite often they think they should be the exception to the rule. People have a way of seeing what they view as “facts” differently than what the actual truth is.

[singularity6]

The behavior you're talking about is extremely unethical, and should not be tolerated. Tumors tend to spread if they are not removed promptly.

We had one instructor leave our school and take a bunch of students with him. Some of those that took part in the exodus regret it. The grass was greener for a short period of time.

That being said, I am reminded of some situations in my own personal and professional experiences... There have been many times where I needed to change course, and everybody knew but me. So I have a saying that I fall back on: "If all I see is headlights, maybe I'm in the wrong lane." This has helped me change course and minimize damage done a few times. While the circumstances are really bad in the situation presented, maybe that senior instructor would benefit from a period of self-reflection (after cleaning house, of course.)

[Wastelander]

Personally, I would like to say that a person like that would not be allowed to have gotten so far in their training, to begin with. That said, I would agree with everyone else, so far--they can leave, and the dojo can get a fresh start.

[MatsuShinshii]

Btw, the word "you" isn't YOU MatsuShinaii, it's the hypothetical "You"!!

No this is not me. I think we are on the same page and if this were me I'd have already shown the student the wrong side of my personality.

No this is an actual event in the business world. It had enough similarities to relate to this happening to a dojo owner that I thought I'd get the KF families input on what they would do.

[MatsuShinshii]

I agree with all of you.

This was actually a few real events in the business world. I sat through a management and ethics course last week and a few examples of real events were brought before us to consider and decide what we would do.

One such situation is as follows;

One real situation happened to a small business owner that operated under the umbrella of the company he represented. More or less working our of his office (paid for by him but given front money or down payment by his company) and reporting to the company and giving them a cut of all profits. Pretty standard practice in some parts of the business world. This "student" was a salesman he hired and the "students he brought to him" where customers.

This individual went and personally met with his customers. He was dealing with everyone of them after the salesman made the sales. Basically the salesman sold the account and then moved on to the next leaving him to service the customer. He explained what was being done. He asked each one if they were happy with the services he provided and then asked if they would be staying or leaving if he fired the salesman.

Once he was assured he was going to retain the majority of his customers he called the salesman into his office and talked to him. He gave him the choice of pursuing his threats or stopping all moves against him and maintaining his job. The salesman (trying to push for a partnership in this case) thought he had the upper hand and issued a final threat. He fired the salesman and told him that he already had spoken with the entire customer base personally. He further explained that in his next job he should realize that selling and servicing are two different things and that yes he was a good salesman and made the initial sale but they were staying because of the service they got not because they like a salesman. He retained 98.4% of his customer base when the salesman left.

Obviously this is a brief synopsis of the events.

I thought about this in terms of the arts and that of school owners. Thought I would inject a few of these scenarios and make it applicable to school owners to see what type of responses you guys would have.

By the way, for my response, in all scenario's the student leaves with my foot print on his backside. Of course not before telling him what a great person they are, wishing them luck in their future endeavors and to have a wonderful life.

And if you believe that bit of sarcasm I have a really good investment in a bridge to sell you.

[MatsuShinshii]

Personally, I would like to say that a person like that would not be allowed to have gotten so far in their training, to begin with. That said, I would agree with everyone else, so far--they can leave, and the dojo can get a fresh start.

I agree. It's great to hear from you Noah.

[Spartacus Maximus]

No instructor ever forced anyone to remain their student. Everyone is free to stay or leave. Why would anyone, for any reason stay as a student when they think they know better or disagree with what is taught or how it is taught?

In the hypothetical situations mentioned, their is probably a deeper yet more trivial motivation. Making such outrageous demands and having the indecency to pose an ultimatum can only be motivated by greed and power or the illusion of having it. Either way, it is nigh impossible to imagine an instructor who would accept that sort of deal. In any case, it would cause a break-up of whatever group, school or governing body.

[MatsuShinshii]

No instructor ever forced anyone to remain their student. Everyone is free to stay or leave. Why would anyone, for any reason stay as a student when they think they know better or disagree with what is taught or how it is taught?

In the hypothetical situations mentioned, their is probably a deeper yet more trivial motivation. Making such outrageous demands and having the indecency to pose an ultimatum can only be motivated by greed and power or the illusion of having it. Either way, it is nigh impossible to imagine an instructor who would accept that sort of deal. In any case, it would cause a break-up of whatever group, school or governing body.

I agree, in the position I am in and how I operate. However this could be a plausible issue when it comes to those that depend on their student base being at a certain number in order to keep their doors open. It certainly happens in the business world and as I have heard so many times on KF, this is a business, albeit I do not think of it in these terms most do.

Anyway it was a food for thought.