Too many Kata or not enough?

[MatsuShinshii]

The longer I study the arts the less I think more equals better.

When I started we had 13 Kata. My Shinshii in his later years and after exposure to other arts and after researching our art decided to cut out certain Kata and add others we ended up with 22 Kata.

Starting out we concentrated on understanding each Kata both in movements, execution and applications. When the plethora of Kata were added the focus shifted away from becoming proficient in each Kata to just learning the movements of all of the Kata. It was too much to spend any amount of time on one Kata in order to understand it's meaning.

I have limited the number of Kata I personally teach to 11 Kata (and I some times feel that is too much) in order to concentrate on the proficiency and understanding of each Kata. I personally know 28 Kata and 14 Hsing due to the arts that I have studied and like Wastelander I do pass them on to senior students for no other reason but to maintain them and to pass them on to those that truly have an interest. In this way they will be preserved for future generations and not be forgot in the sands of time.

However I do not know (the applicaations) all of these Kata and therefore only teach them to those that have an interest and have already learned and excelled in the Kata within the curriculum first. For me these are a further study and to enhance me personally and not so much the art that I study.

I do understand why he cut out some of the Kata (mainly because they did not come from Matsumura but from Itosu which is not in our lineage and was not created from a Chinese Hsing or was not invented by Matsumura himself) and I also understand why he added some of the Kata that he did (mainly because they are older Kata that Matsumura passed on to other students as we understand historical documentation or Kata that he would most definitely have been taught or exposed to). because it adds understanding of our art and the Kata of our art in studying them. I have personally cut the list down to what I feel is original or complementary to what Matsumura taught.

Personally I could probably teach and study 4 Kata for the rest of my life time. As you progress you begin to pick up on small nuances that are not easily picked up on and you end up spending days, weeks, months or years finding more and more applications and techniques of the Kata. Not to mention watching others and the way they interpret the same Kata. You could literally study one Kata for 5 to 7 years and still not fully have mastered it.

I find nothing wrong with learning as many Kata as you can. I personally believe to truly understand ones art, concentrating on a few Kata and understanding the totality of said Kata, is the only way. Knowing 1000 Kata and truly KNOWING and understanding a Kata are two different things.

Having said that I find nothing wrong with increasing ones knowledge by learning additional Kata once you have a firm grasp of your arts Kata. This can actually be quite insightful and lead to break thru's and deeper understanding of the art as a whole.

[singularity6]

While I think it'd be nifty to know lots of forms, I agree with MatsuShinshii: You'd only need a few to focus on, as they're very difficult to master.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Excluding the kihon kata, there are 14 kata taught in my Shorin ryu. Unlike other instructors who have trained in different systems throughout their lives, mine only teaches those ones. This is because they are the ones he has practised and studied them for much longer and in greater depth than anything else.

Another reason for not teaching other kata he might know is cultural. He accepted his sensei’s last wish to succeed him and promised he would teach exactly what he was taught and spread that particular Shorin-ryu as far as possible.

In contrast, there are many instructors who feel that they should have something from each of their most influential sensei. Sometimes this means that they will have one or several kata inherited from two or three or maybe more teachers.

[sensei8]

It had been once said that if one only trained in the Niahanchi kata's, one wouldn't be wasting their life!!

Imagine only training in those three kata's alone...no other...nothing else!! For year after year; without ceasing...day after day...week after week...month after month...year after year...decade after decade.

Having have been doing the Niahanchi kata's for decades, along with much many others, I can see that if that's the only kata I had ever done my entire 5 plus decades, it wouldn't have been a waste of time.

Each movement in either of the Niahanchi kata are, to me, quite valuable; effectiveness can be garnered from them.

I suppose what I'm saying is simple...I believe in the importance of the Niahanchi kata's!! I'm speaking for myself!! What another MAist believes is up to them!!

[MatsuShinshii]

It had been once said that if one only trained in the Niahanchi kata's, one wouldn't be wasting their life!!

Imagine only training in those three kata's alone...no other...nothing else!! For year after year; without ceasing...day after day...week after week...month after month...year after year...decade after decade.

Having have been doing the Niahanchi kata's for decades, along with much many others, I can see that if that's the only kata I had ever done my entire 5 plus decades, it wouldn't have been a waste of time.

Each movement in either of the Niahanchi kata are, to me, quite valuable; effectiveness can be garnered from them.

I suppose what I'm saying is simple...I believe in the importance of the Niahanchi kata's!! I'm speaking for myself!! What another MAist believes is up to them!!

You sound like Motobu. I love it!

In this we agree Sensei8. I personally love Naifanchi (Naihanchi) Kata. It's one of my persoanl favorites. And like you I could spend a life time on these Kata. There are so many applications to the postures and even individual movements within this Kata that you could spend a life time interpreting them.

We only practice the first two Naifanchi Kata as it is believe by myself and others within our art that the third was created by Itosu and was not taught by Matsumura. Having said that I have learned through another art the third Naifanchi and still practice it as it has obvious parallels to the first two and it contains a wealth of information in and of itself.

[MatsuShinshii]

Excluding the kihon kata, there are 14 kata taught in my Shorin ryu. Unlike other instructors who have trained in different systems throughout their lives, mine only teaches those ones. This is because they are the ones he has practised and studied them for much longer and in greater depth than anything else.

Another reason for not teaching other kata he might know is cultural. He accepted his sensei’s last wish to succeed him and promised he would teach exactly what he was taught and spread that particular Shorin-ryu as far as possible.

In contrast, there are many instructors who feel that they should have something from each of their most influential sensei. Sometimes this means that they will have one or several kata inherited from two or three or maybe more teachers.

My personal thoughts about maintaining and teaching only those Kata that were passed down by the founder is that these Kata are the art itself. Interjecting additional Kata changes the art as it was passed down. This in my mind keeps the original teachings intact and as it was passed down through the generations so that we can pass it on to future generations.

Having said that I also see nothing wrong with increasing ones personal knowledge by reaching outside of ones art. In my 20+ years of researching my art it has led me to other arts and in learning their art or Kata, I have been able to gain more insight into my own art. I have also been able to strengthen my "personal art" by reaching outside of my art, in that I have found different translations of techniques that have given me insight I would not have had learned within my own art.

IMHO our teachers are only human as I am. There are techniques or applications that are forgotten or not taught for reasons only they can explain. My Shinshii, as much as I revere him, has his flaws and upon learning something new and showing him, I have gotten a response of "oh I completely forgot about that" or "I never agreed with that so I don't teach it.

Each instructor will pass on what they feel is relevant and discard what they feel is not. My personal feeling is to pass on everything and let the student decide what works and what doesn't.

My Shinshii executes an application that can be best described as a wrap around throw. I personally can not execute this very well because of my height and body mechanics but I still teach it as others can execute it with deadly precision.

I am all for maintaining the art as it was passed down but I also think that we, as the founders did, should always look outside to find that which might benefit us personally and strengthen our personal art. This is why I personally have no issue with a student taking other arts or experimenting to see what best fits them. In this way we grow and we can still maintain the integrity of the art. There is nothing that says that we can't learn other arts but only teach our art as it was passed down to us.

I personally think this is one of the reasons that the arts have been so skewed. The mixing of arts and calling it the same name is wrong. I never agreed with this even when my own Shinshii was adding to ours.

I am graded (Ranked) in other arts but I do not teach them or their techniques to my students. The fact that I took them was for my personal benefit not to "improve" my art as so many feel they need to.

This to me is arrogance pure and simple. When someone with less than 30 years of study, and most times with nothing more than a Shodan's experience, introduces new techniques because they feel it improves upon the art... arrogance!.

The arts, if studied in their entirety, are complete and need no improvement from some self proclaimed expert no matter their grade and years of experience. Oh and I told this to my Shinshii when he was experimenting with our art. I made quite the impression but it was thankfully taken in the spirit it was given. I believed it then and I believe it to this day.

An art that was created through actual combative techniques forged in real life and death combat trump any so called modern day expert with a large opinion of themselves. You can not fix it, however you can add to your personal art. Just don't mess with the art itself. And don't think that you can improve on something that was created and has been taught centuries before you were even born.

Sorry. I got off track their and had a personal rant.

Back to what you were saying I agree with you that to teach your arts Kata and only your arts Kata is the right path.

Sorry I guess I needed to rant.

[sensei8]

I also do not, and will not teach my Student Body Kata's that are outside of Shindokan because those outside Kata's aren't two things:

1) Part of the curriculum as it was handed down from Soke.

2) Shindokan!!

I can visually see, and feel, both Soke and Dai-Soke turning in their graves if I was to actively teach Kata's outside of the Shindokan. That's mainly because it's wrong.

How is it wrong?? Are the Kata's outside of Shindokan wrong/incorrect??

It's wrong to teach my Student Body Kata's outside of Shindokan because those Kata's outside of Shindokan ARE NOT Shindokan Kata's; not even close. Yes, there are similarities, by names alone, but the movements and the like are slightly different, even in the Pinan Kata sets. A different turn or a different stance/posture, but effective in application.

Kata's outside of Shindokan aren't wrong/incorrect all together, for example, the Heian Kata set is solidly effective. Wankan...Unsu are two Kata's that aren't Shindkan, but I execute them quite often at tournaments when I was active because the effectiveness within those two Kata's are apparent to me across the board. So is Suparinpei, imho; balanced in its Bunkai's and most effective.

I will not teach Kata's that are outside of Shindokan because I just won't!! If my Student Body wants to learn Kata outside of Shindokan, that's OK with me because I can't, and won't, prevent them from doing so; their MA journey is theirs alone!!

My Student Body aren't idle minded robots, but they're free spirits to do whatever they want to do. They can learn all of the Kata's they want, as I did, if it'll improve their MA betterment. And they can do this without my permission, as I did without Dai-Soke's permission.

While I believe that no one owns any Kata, nor does any style own a Kata, and in that, any Kata can be learned from anyone anyway they can. If Kata is meant to be owned by anything and/or anyone, then that Kata(s) should be kept to the founder alone.

"Don't teach this Kata to anyone!!" Yeah, that will be difficult to enforce because man is a curious thing, and curious things like to share curious things to curious people.

[skullsplitter]

Up until a couple of years ago our school had 21 Shotokan kata, 9 of those were for 1st dan. We have a several curious adults and teens who just like to learn new kata and explore the history. We've added Jitte a couple of years ago and Jiin this year. Hangetsu, Wankan, and Meikyo are coming too. This all came from us telling sensei we know there are more Shotokan kata and we'd like to learn them please. It's been fun watching sensei "relearn" some of these as she's told us she had learned these many years ago but hasn't trained them much.

Also we are encouraged to explore outside our style too. She knows some Korean and Okinawan forms as well and will help students learn those if they ask.

[MatsuShinshii]

I also do not, and will not teach my Student Body Kata's that are outside of Shindokan because those outside Kata's aren't two things:

1) Part of the curriculum as it was handed down from Soke.

2) Shindokan!!

I can visually see, and feel, both Soke and Dai-Soke turning in their graves if I was to actively teach Kata's outside of the Shindokan. That's mainly because it's wrong.

How is it wrong?? Are the Kata's outside of Shindokan wrong/incorrect??

It's wrong to teach my Student Body Kata's outside of Shindokan because those Kata's outside of Shindokan ARE NOT Shindokan Kata's; not even close. Yes, there are similarities, by names alone, but the movements and the like are slightly different, even in the Pinan Kata sets. A different turn or a different stance/posture, but effective in application.

Kata's outside of Shindokan aren't wrong/incorrect all together, for example, the Heian Kata set is solidly effective. Wankan...Unsu are two Kata's that aren't Shindkan, but I execute them quite often at tournaments when I was active because the effectiveness within those two Kata's are apparent to me across the board. So is Suparinpei, imho; balanced in its Bunkai's and most effective.

I will not teach Kata's that are outside of Shindokan because I just won't!! If my Student Body wants to learn Kata outside of Shindokan, that's OK with me because I can't, and won't, prevent them from doing so; their MA journey is theirs alone!!

My Student Body aren't idle minded robots, but they're free spirits to do whatever they want to do. They can learn all of the Kata's they want, as I did, if it'll improve their MA betterment. And they can do this without my permission, as I did without Dai-Soke's permission.

While I believe that no one owns any Kata, nor does any style own a Kata, and in that, any Kata can be learned from anyone anyway they can. If Kata is meant to be owned by anything and/or anyone, then that Kata(s) should be kept to the founder alone.

"Don't teach this Kata to anyone!!" Yeah, that will be difficult to enforce because man is a curious thing, and curious things like to share curious things to curious people.

Out of curiosity Bob, what Kata do you teach in your style of Shindokan?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Lineage is an important factor in determining the number of kata and which ones are included in an instructor’s curriculum. The only common content shared by all are the “core” kata. For example, every lineage of Shorin ryu will have the naihanchi series. Chibana(Itosu’s student) is the originator of the Kobayshi branch of Shorin ryu, which from personal recollection has, as of now no less than 6 “kan” or organizations on Okinawa. Each of these has a few kata which aren’t taught in the other lineages. All of the six belong to the same system.