Too many Kata or not enough?

[MatsuShinshii]

In looking at the different arts (Okinawan and Japanese) you will find that some study many (possibly too many) and some study a few.

History tells us that one Kata (Hsing) was the culmination of a total art. It also teaches us that some of the founders and pioneers only studied a few Kata through their life time and others studied one Kata for anywhere from 5 to 7 years before moving on to the next Kata. Others studied one for a life time.

On the other hand there are arts that started out with a few, and have through the years, built up to a staggering amount of Kata.

So what is your opinion? Is it better to know a lot of different Kata or study a few and know them well?

[Lupin1]

I like having a variety of kata. I think it allows you to explore different ways of movement. That said, I do think my school teaches too many kata. We require 15 for Shodan-- the 8 empty hand Isshinryu kata and 7 additional kata from other systems including one weapon kata.

It's great in that it forces us to learn to move differently. We do everything from a Goju kata to a Shotokan kata to a Kung Fu form. But at the same time we have so many that most of them don't get practiced regularly. In regular practice we focus more on the Isshinryu kata, so, for instance, I probably couldn't even remember the entire Kung Fu form if I were to get up and try it right now. I would need to work on it a bit to remember it all.

So I think around 8-10 basic kata is probably the right number. Too many more than that and some of them get neglected and forgotten or just get half-learned. Too many less than that and you don't get enough variety and develop a narrow view.

[sensei8]

In my 53 years in Shindokan, and it has its share of Kata, to be for sure, I learned quite a many different kata outside of Shindokan. Why?? Curiosity!!

What are their Bunkai and the like, compared to Shindokan, was my driving force behind learning their kata's, and not in a passing notion. What I found was the many, many similarities between the kata's, with changes here and there for their reasons alone.

Learn one or learn a ton!! That's up to the individual, imho!! I do see two things...effectiveness and ineffectiveness through and through in the plethora of kata's that I've learned, and I've learned a lot of Kata's; some still haunt me.

Have I added anything of importance by learning so many different Kata's to my MA betterment?? That answer will change because I'm still learning and don't know everything!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

There is an established historical record of martial arts experts and teachers during the Old Ryukyu Era whose entire training consisted of no more than 3 kata. It is only much later in the first few decades of the 1900’s that some of these experts saw a need to compile katas into systems.

This is how the different Okinawan styles came about. At that time several experts took it upon themselves to learn, preserve and teach all the kata they could manage. The clear distinction of the main Okinawan karate styles goes back no further than the 1930’s(when the first associations were formed by the founders of the modern styles). Before that Okinawan martial arts were not so clear cut. It was all called Tuidi and one teacher knew only one or two forms.

It should also be considered that some of the kata that are practised nowadays are quite recent. These kata are usually composed of parts of older, longer kata. Sometimes Okinawan teachers divided a longer Chinese form into several parts to make it easier to teach(this is a possible explanation for the three naihanchi kata in shuri-te).

Finally, from a practical point of view one or two kata ought to be enough for someone who just wants to train for personal defense. In the end what really makes the difference between an expert and a mere dabbler is not the number of kata. It is how well the kata are understood and whether or not the techniques have been assimilated to the point that they can be used spontaneously and effectively in the way which they were intended to be.

[Wastelander]

Historically, yes, we do know that styles were comprised of a very small selection of kata. The "Holy Trinity" of Shorin-Ryu, for example, is Naihanchi, Passai, and Kusanku. These are the koryu kata of KishimotoDi, which only has one additional kata--Nidanbu--that was developed by Kishimoto Soko to highlight some connections between the three. I will say that, between KishimotoDi, Motobu-Ryu, and Matsumura Seito, we have very strong evidence to show that the three Naihanchi kata were NOT originally one long kata, as one Western historian had suggested (which took off as fact, for some reason). The kata that became Naihanchi Shodan was a standalone kata. Nidan and Sandan could have been developed by either Matsumura or Itosu, depending on the version of history you are looking at. The founder of my organization, Nakazato Shugoro, said that Itosu made them, and that is what I tend to believe, based on my research. The presence of Naihanchi Nidan in Matsumura Seito could suggest that Matsumura Sokon developed it, but Soken Hohan also trained with some students of Itosu, and could have picked it up that way.

How many kata is "enough" is going to be very subjective. What are your goals in training? What are your goals in teaching? What is your emphasis when working the kata? How good are you at memorizing movement? Etc. If you want your students to quickly learn self defense skills, then a smaller curriculum is going to be more efficient, as you can put more time into less material. That will also allow you to develop a very deep understanding of the kata from both biomechanical and application perspectives. On the other hand, if you want people to go compete, or you are interested in the preservation of material, then you may study more broadly, and collect more kata. Or, maybe you just like having additional kata for reference.

My style has a lot of kata--16 proper kata, or 19 if you include Chibana Chosin's three Kihon Kata--and I know more than that, because I came from another style originally, and have picked up extras along the way. At last count, there were 33 kata that I can perform. From a practical perspective, I recognize that this is too many to truly study in-depth. That said, I tend to focus on in-depth study for a smaller, select group of kata, and use the others for reference and supplemental study.

From a curriculum perspective, I would be happy to trim down the number of kata we have, significantly, but I also find value in some of the other kata I know, and it would be hard for me to drop them. The Pinan kata, for instance, I would be totally fine with dropping--we have plenty of that content in Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto. I would also be fine dropping Itosu Passai and Kusanku Sho, in favor of keeping Tawada Passai and Kusanku Dai. I would keep Chibana's three Kihon Kata, but I really consider them more like line drills than kata, so I wouldn't include them in a "kata list." I would be happy to drop Nakazato Shugoro's Fukyu no Kata and Gorin no Kata. This would drop us down to 7 "older" kata.

That is much more manageable, from a curriculum standpoint. Of course, then I would have to figure out how much value there is in the other kata I have learned, and whether it would be beneficial to include them. Taikyoku? Gekisai? Sanchin? Tensho? Seiyunchin? Wansu? Anaku? Enpi? My KishimotoDi kata? There is a lot to consider. Personally, I think I would include the KishimotoDi material, which would bump it up to 11 kata, and then maybe save Tensho and Seiyunchin for students who could benefit from them, which would make it 13. It's still quite a bit more than the old styles, but I think there is a balance that can be struck between deep study and broad study. I also think that each student should find a small selection of the kata from their curriculum to be their tokuigata (specialty forms), which they focus on the most. For me, it's the Shorin-Ryu Trinity, but someone else might like Chinto, Gojushiho, and Seiyunchin the most, because they fit those kata better.

[JR 137]

I think how many kata a school/organization often requires reflects what they feel the purpose of kata is. Schools that do many kata seem to me to view them more as movement patterns rather than training the moves individually and together as actual self defense/fighting moves. Kind of hard to put that into words for me here. If you’re required to know 30 kata before shodan, I’m willing to bet that each kata is done for aesthetic purposes and training motor movement, rather than pulling it apart and learning and exploring deeper intent of each part.

There’s nothing wrong with that approach, if that approach aligns with the student’s interests. Simply performing the kata many times over can lead to better coordination, flexibility, speed, endurance, etc., all of which will make one more effective. Looking at TKD forms that aren’t carry-overs from karate seem like a good example of this to me. There’s plenty of stance changes, kicks that come from or lead to odd angles and directions, etc. When I see those particular forms, I view them as building athleticism more so than developing direct “fighting moves.” Push-up, squat thrusts, etc. aren’t fighting moves, yet it’s stupid to think they’re not great for improving fighting attributes. Traditional karate kata can be used the same way.

I think the camps that do fewer kata delve far deeper into the applications of the movements and aren’t concerned with how the practitioner looks, so long as he/she throughly understands why he/she’s doing each movement.

[sensei8]

Who's to say enough is enough?? That too, imho, is subjective, and for cause!!

I personally believe that our Soke's choices of what kata's, both empty as well as kobudo, were for a reason, but was Soke's choices a personal or a professional one!?

I do know that Soke despised anything and everything about what was current in the realm of Okinawa Karate-do, and it was his most profoundness desire to separate himself from the powers that were operating in his days as far as way as possible!!

The funny, or not so funny, thing is that neither of us here, or anywhere else for that fact, have the authority to rename and/or remove said kata's from your current curriculum as authorized by your Governing Body!! However, as MAist's, we can learn and explore and whatever else anything we want to, and this includes any kata we choose that's outside of our core style without anyone's permission.

Might make this thread/topic mute, but interesting!! Interesting enough to converse about it, as we are doing now.

Kata on!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

Before tackling the question of too much vs not enough, it would be a good idea to ask oneself “for what purpose?”. That would get a much more precise answer. Considering only the goal of self defense, a single kata thoroughly learned and practised can provide all the techniques one could ever need.

It doesn’t have to be long either. As for entire styles or systems, the number of three seems like a good number. There are a few Okinawan karate styles with less than 10 of which some schools teach less than that number. Uechi-ryu/pangai noon comes to mind.

Outside of karate there are also some Chinese systems with very few forms such as wing chun. So this trait of having very few or even a single form/kata containing an entire “style”’s material is nothing unique or unusual.

[Shizentai]

There is an established historical record of martial arts experts and teachers during the Old Ryukyu Era whose entire training consisted of no more than 3 kata. It is only much later in the first few decades of the 1900’s that some of these experts saw a need to compile katas into systems.

This is how the different Okinawan styles came about. At that time several experts took it upon themselves to learn, preserve and teach all the kata they could manage. The clear distinction of the main Okinawan karate styles goes back no further than the 1930’s(when the first associations were formed by the founders of the modern styles). Before that Okinawan martial arts were not so clear cut. It was all called Tuidi and one teacher knew only one or two forms.

It should also be considered that some of the kata that are practised nowadays are quite recent. These kata are usually composed of parts of older, longer kata. Sometimes Okinawan teachers divided a longer Chinese form into several parts to make it easier to teach(this is a possible explanation for the three naihanchi kata in shuri-te).

Finally, from a practical point of view one or two kata ought to be enough for someone who just wants to train for personal defense. In the end what really makes the difference between an expert and a mere dabbler is not the number of kata. It is how well the kata are understood and whether or not the techniques have been assimilated to the point that they can be used spontaneously and effectively in the way which they were intended to be.

This was a very solid historical synopsis. Thank you. I also agree, 26(+) is more than enough to keep me occupied for the first 17 years of my training so far. For me there is always something to rediscover. There is always a new bunkai lying waiting to be found, or a new concept still forming in the kata whose order has become rote.

[MatsuShinshii]

I think how many kata a school/organization often requires reflects what they feel the purpose of kata is. Schools that do many kata seem to me to view them more as movement patterns rather than training the moves individually and together as actual self defense/fighting moves. Kind of hard to put that into words for me here. If you’re required to know 30 kata before shodan, I’m willing to bet that each kata is done for aesthetic purposes and training motor movement, rather than pulling it apart and learning and exploring deeper intent of each part.

There’s nothing wrong with that approach, if that approach aligns with the student’s interests. Simply performing the kata many times over can lead to better coordination, flexibility, speed, endurance, etc., all of which will make one more effective. Looking at TKD forms that aren’t carry-overs from karate seem like a good example of this to me. There’s plenty of stance changes, kicks that come from or lead to odd angles and directions, etc. When I see those particular forms, I view them as building athleticism more so than developing direct “fighting moves.” Push-up, squat thrusts, etc. aren’t fighting moves, yet it’s stupid to think they’re not great for improving fighting attributes. Traditional karate kata can be used the same way.

I think the camps that do fewer kata delve far deeper into the applications of the movements and aren’t concerned with how the practitioner looks, so long as he/she throughly understands why he/she’s doing each movement.

100% agreed.