UFC

[Gumbi]

TMA combat orented? no way doing hours of forms and stance work is combative.

Not in hour days , while OLD traditional martial artists had the chance to test their powers in a real situation , NEW traditional martial artists probably won't , the forms and stances where daily preparation for real situations , and i think they worked

Today's martial artists have chances to test their powers in real situations, more so than the older ones did.

Perhaps the forms and stances may have worked, but certainly not as much as today's training and preperation does.

[baronbvp]

What matters is what prepares YOU for combat.

[Treebranch]

Gumbi you are only talking about unarmed contests right? Your aren't saying that these fighters are equivalent to the warriors of old are you? Killing and fighting are very different and fighting in a battle and fighting in the ring are completely different, but of course you know that right? So do you really think people who had to fight to survive couldn't fight as well as a modern sport MA?

[SevenStar]

Gumbi you are only talking about unarmed contests right? Your aren't saying that these fighters are equivalent to the warriors of old are you? Killing and fighting are very different and fighting in a battle and fighting in the ring are completely different, but of course you know that right? So do you really think people who had to fight to survive couldn't fight as well as a modern sport MA?

Actually, I don't think they could - not all of them anyway. you're talking about two different types of training here. most of those guys would get slaughtered in a ring. Also, we have no earthly clue how good any of these old guys actually were. there is no record of the skill level of the people they beat, how they survived the fight, etc. Some guys probably hid and jumped out, stabbing people from behind. In such cases, it's possible that they may not have been that skilled, and may have been mauled face to face.

Or, they could've landed lucky kill shots. Anyone, can land something on anyone on any given day. musashi for example, may have fought someone more skilled than him at some point in time, but just happened to land a fight finishing blow. since the guy died, there is no way to tell whether or not he would've won on another day. I'd bet money that most of these guys were NOT ring ready...

And the guys currently training in these systems likely don't train the EXACT same way these older guys did, or with the same intensity, as they aren't having to go to wars regularly. So these people may be even worse off in some instances...

[SevenStar]

TMA combat orented? no way doing hours of forms and stance work is combative.

TmA hasn't always been that way - not all of them anyway. Different styles used different methods. shuai chiao, for example, has no forms real forms work. Also, back in the day, a style didn't have 30 forms or more. many styles only had one or two forms. as some styles began to die out, forms from those styles were added to others in an attempt to preserve them. Also, over time, people have created forms. Many of the older styles did ALOT of drilling as opposed to the sparring done today. That was likely a bigger focus than forms and stance.

[SevenStar]

TMA combat orented? no way doing hours of forms and stance work is combative.

Not in hour days , while OLD traditional martial artists had the chance to test their powers in a real situation , NEW traditional martial artists probably won't , the forms and stances where daily preparation for real situations , and i think they worked

that's not the purpose of stance training. The primary purpse was to teach footwork, ultimately leading to having good, solid, rooted stances while still being able to have mobile footwork. THIS is what was useful in fighting. Forms helped to reinforce these things, and also taught proper intent, body mechanics, breath control, etc.

As for having the opportunity to test yourself, there is WAY more opportunity today - in the ring - they have various venues you can step into.

[Treebranch]

I don't know man I think warfare is far more brutal than a contest, unless the contest is to the death. The last Grandmaster of BT faught in death matches and won with the system I'm learning today. I think if I was to fight in the ring it would be really hard for me not to cheat, because what we are taught to do. Training for the ring has different specifics than Combat MA's focus on. I still do drills and sparring just like anyone else, but with different ideas in mind. I'm not trying to win a fight with set rules, I don't want to just trade punches. I'm trying to find this moments in stand up fighting that BJJ goes find on the ground to lock someone up. Of course using strikes to create the locks works best. The Aikido way is too soft and striking is a very effect way of making someone more cooperative to employs locks and throws. The thing that sport arts came from TMA's and since we live in a fairly civilized society we don't need to know how to kill with our hands, we use a gun. So saying that Sport MA's are going to seem more plausable and practical to most people. Face it most people who get in fights just want to beat the person up, not kill them. But that doesn't mean that any style can't be used to do so. Just that some MA's are created for certain purposes that really can't be tested anymore. You can only test the set allowed skills which pretty much makes MA's adapt to competitive type MA's. I still think that what I'm learning is a priviledge and my fighting skills have improved tremendously in a short time.

Let me make one point I see that is wrong with Boxing. If you employed a guard more like that of the bare knuckle fighters, you'd get hit less. They kept the arm out there for a reason, it was a shield. When gloves came into play, because of regulations they brought the guard in closer to the face so to make the sport more exciting. So since NHB is closer to bare knuckle fighting they should put the lead arm further out. Plus striking without gloves is different than striking with gloves. You can't hit hard areas of the body or head with a bare fist. You will risk breaking your hands. So in many ways the bare knuckle fighters fought closer to real combat than boxers do today. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think it's safe to disregard the past and assume what we have is better. I say look at both and try to look at thing in context.

[Mr Pockets]

Most NHB fighters train in "boxing" just without the gloves. I think most people don't draw the distinction and assume that when you box you can only do it with gloves.

Quick question- you want to lock people up standing the way BJJers do on the ground... do you mean like armbars or wristlocks or what?

[radicalspiegal]

I (personally) think that a American Kenpo and jujistu mix would be the most effective. But thats just me and good luck with the UFC, I have met a few of them.....um yeah pretty big and ugly fellows.

-Bran

" Its not about who's right, but who's left." Sr. Grandmaster Ed Parker.

[mai tai]

I don't know man I think warfare is far more brutal than a contest, unless the contest is to the death.

warfar is far more brutal however as being an ex army ranger who has been to combat 2 times i am here to tell you the US army is so good at combat not because we go to it all the time but we train for it all the time. in non lethal contest with. yes yes im going to shock everyone here, RULES yes RULES. i know its hard to believe. so i guess buy the common logic that goes no in this site we should be less effective than angola rebels who fight for real.

I don't want to just trade punches. I'm trying to find this moments in stand up fighting that BJJ goes find on the ground to lock someone up. Of course using strikes to create the locks works best. The Aikido way is too soft and striking is a very effect way of making someone more cooperative to employs locks and throws.

i think this is avery effective stratagy form experience on the ground i know this to be true. i wish i could learn how to do it standing (besides flying armbar, traiangle and gillotine) but i dont want to have to go through al the forms and belt system of another art to do it. i train with a lot of guys from diffferent arts on the weekend but i dont know anyone who does stand up locks with any effency.

The thing that sport arts came from TMA's and since we live in a fairly civilized society we don't need to know how to kill with our hands, we use a gun.

at what point in history did we ever have to kill with are bare hands. even davids kill golath with a sling

Let me make one point I see that is wrong with Boxing. If you employed a guard more like that of the bare knuckle fighters, you'd get hit less. They kept the arm out there for a reason, it was a shield. When gloves came into play, because of regulations they brought the guard in closer to the face so to make the sport more exciting. So since NHB is closer to bare knuckle fighting they should put the lead arm further out. Plus striking without gloves is different than striking with gloves. You can't hit hard areas of the body or head with a bare fist. You will risk breaking your hands.

in boxing you hold your hands close to your head so that you can hit harder with out having to draw them back. when i trained in thailand the fighters there held there hands out farther from the head but they dont puch as much or as hard as ammericans. they use kicks more and ellbows more.

when blocking most guys cover and put there hands right on the head. this is because if you dont and you try one of the, for lack of a better word" karate" style inside out blocks , with hard shots your own hand will get blasted right back into your face.

So in many ways the bare knuckle fighters fought closer to real combat than boxers do today.

of coarse it was more like a real fight. however these guys probale had very short carriers and if the trained bare knuckes, not much training time..