Techniques used but not in your art

[MatsuShinshii]

This is what I expected to find. I too utilize techniques that are not directly found in the Kata. This does not mean that they are not found within the art though.

Wastelander you mentioned Mawashi Geri, we also utilize this technique but classify it as coming from Ti rather than Toudi. If you look at Muay Boran, which influenced Ti, you find this kick executed to the outside/inside of the leg. We also utilize strikes not found within the Kata as well but can be found sprinkled through our Ti training.

I personally find no issue with incorporating other techniques for personal improvement. I just do not teach it as if it where apart of the art if it does not come from the art (Ti'gwa or Quan Fa). We teach this as, in addition to, the art.

Personally I would love to see Ne Waza incorporated as an, In Addition To, our art as an answer to the ground fighting that is so prevalent today. Our ground fighting, if you want to call it that, is weak at best and only covers getting back to the feet and not what to do if you get caught on the ground with a skilled ground fighting practitioner.

But this is not something that our organization believes in so it's up to the individual to find this outside of class.

I appreciate the responses and I'd like to say I was surprised but this is exactly what I expected to find. I think that this boils down to human nature in that if you do not have a tool for a specific job because it's not in your tool box, you'll go and find a tool that works. I find this to be in the spirit of the founders as they took many arts and condensed them into one.

However, and I may be alone on this, I still find no use for high or jump spinning kicks. I have studied and used them in different arts but find no use in actual conflicts. I'm sure others here do and that is great because whatever works for you is right. Just not right for me and as a result I do not teach them.

We have the Yoko Tobi Geri (flying/Jumping Side Kick) in our Kata and find no use for it either. Ironic, but I guess you don't have too many occasions to fight someone on horse back. Sarcasm!

[JR 137]

This is what I expected to find. I too utilize techniques that are not directly found in the Kata. This does not mean that they are not found within the art though.

Wastelander you mentioned Mawashi Geri, we also utilize this technique but classify it as coming from Ti rather than Toudi. If you look at Muay Boran, which influenced Ti, you find this kick executed to the outside/inside of the leg. We also utilize strikes not found within the Kata as well but can be found sprinkled through our Ti training.

I personally find no issue with incorporating other techniques for personal improvement. I just do not teach it as if it where apart of the art if it does not come from the art (Ti'gwa or Quan Fa). We teach this as, in addition to, the art.

Personally I would love to see Ne Waza incorporated as an, In Addition To, our art as an answer to the ground fighting that is so prevalent today. Our ground fighting, if you want to call it that, is weak at best and only covers getting back to the feet and not what to do if you get caught on the ground with a skilled ground fighting practitioner.

But this is not something that our organization believes in so it's up to the individual to find this outside of class.

I appreciate the responses and I'd like to say I was surprised but this is exactly what I expected to find. I think that this boils down to human nature in that if you do not have a tool for a specific job because it's not in your tool box, you'll go and find a tool that works. I find this to be in the spirit of the founders as they took many arts and condensed them into one.

However, and I may be alone on this, I still find no use for high or jump spinning kicks. I have studied and used them in different arts but find no use in actual conflicts. I'm sure others here do and that is great because whatever works for you is right. Just not right for me and as a result I do not teach them.

We have the Yoko Tobi Geri (flying/Jumping Side Kick) in our Kata and find no use for it either. Ironic, but I guess you don't have too many occasions to fight someone on horse back. Sarcasm!

IMO there’s a great reason for jumping, spinning, etc. kicks. Even kicks above one’s own waist - to develop athleticism, agility, coordination, etc. I don’t believe there’s any genuinely combative application for them, but that doesn’t make them worthless by any means. There’s no genuine combative application for pushups, squats, etc., but I don’t think anyone could say doing them is worthless.

[Wastelander]

We actually do include a degree of newaza in our karate training, as well--mostly how to fall and how to extricate yourself from a variety of scenarios on the ground so you can get back to your feet. We do have a grappling program for those interested in more in-depth grappling training, although it is still supplemental for us. If someone wants a full grappling program, they would want to go cross-train, and we have some people who do.

[MatsuShinshii]

We actually do include a degree of newaza in our karate training, as well--mostly how to fall and how to extricate yourself from a variety of scenarios on the ground so you can get back to your feet. We do have a grappling program for those interested in more in-depth grappling training, although it is still supplemental for us. If someone wants a full grappling program, they would want to go cross-train, and we have some people who do.

Well I would say you are a huge leg up on us. I hate to admit this but it's included into our applications.

It is taught as if you're executing the Kata on the ground. We are told that this was passed down and no one older than I will admit any differently but in my assessment someone at some point decided that a ground element was needed and made the Kata suite this need rather than it actually coming from the Kata.

I will say some of the applications work and are effective but I don't buy into it being extracted from the Kata nor does my research support this.

It is basically a hodge podge of techniques to get back to your feet. There is absolutely no viable techniques that would allow you to stay on the ground and battle an experienced grappler.

[MatsuShinshii]

This is what I expected to find. I too utilize techniques that are not directly found in the Kata. This does not mean that they are not found within the art though.

Wastelander you mentioned Mawashi Geri, we also utilize this technique but classify it as coming from Ti rather than Toudi. If you look at Muay Boran, which influenced Ti, you find this kick executed to the outside/inside of the leg. We also utilize strikes not found within the Kata as well but can be found sprinkled through our Ti training.

I personally find no issue with incorporating other techniques for personal improvement. I just do not teach it as if it where apart of the art if it does not come from the art (Ti'gwa or Quan Fa). We teach this as, in addition to, the art.

Personally I would love to see Ne Waza incorporated as an, In Addition To, our art as an answer to the ground fighting that is so prevalent today. Our ground fighting, if you want to call it that, is weak at best and only covers getting back to the feet and not what to do if you get caught on the ground with a skilled ground fighting practitioner.

But this is not something that our organization believes in so it's up to the individual to find this outside of class.

I appreciate the responses and I'd like to say I was surprised but this is exactly what I expected to find. I think that this boils down to human nature in that if you do not have a tool for a specific job because it's not in your tool box, you'll go and find a tool that works. I find this to be in the spirit of the founders as they took many arts and condensed them into one.

However, and I may be alone on this, I still find no use for high or jump spinning kicks. I have studied and used them in different arts but find no use in actual conflicts. I'm sure others here do and that is great because whatever works for you is right. Just not right for me and as a result I do not teach them.

We have the Yoko Tobi Geri (flying/Jumping Side Kick) in our Kata and find no use for it either. Ironic, but I guess you don't have too many occasions to fight someone on horse back. Sarcasm!

IMO there’s a great reason for jumping, spinning, etc. kicks. Even kicks above one’s own waist - to develop athleticism, agility, coordination, etc. I don’t believe there’s any genuinely combative application for them, but that doesn’t make them worthless by any means. There’s no genuine combative application for pushups, squats, etc., but I don’t think anyone could say doing them is worthless.

I agree with you. I did not say that we do not utilize higher kicks to gain flexibility. We just do not use these exercises as real kicks for real scenario's.

In my experience and in all of the fights that I have been in over the years and those that I have seen there is one truth... close quarters.

Distance fighting only works if both parties wish to fight at a distance. So high kicks are impractical at best in 99.9% of a real fight. I'm sure someone will have a story about how they use them in real fights all of the time but in my experience they are useless other than to gain and remain flexible.

If it starts off at a distance or you have perfect timing and can get to a distance in order to throw one of these kicks before the distance is closed then great. However it's been my experience that I can close the distance thus negating the leg all together and take advantage of their lack of balance and bad positioning.

To each their own. Nothing says that I am an expert in all things and if high/jumping/spinning kicks work for you then ignore what I am saying. For me they do not work. Just one mans opinion and nothing more.

[Wastelander]

We actually do include a degree of newaza in our karate training, as well--mostly how to fall and how to extricate yourself from a variety of scenarios on the ground so you can get back to your feet. We do have a grappling program for those interested in more in-depth grappling training, although it is still supplemental for us. If someone wants a full grappling program, they would want to go cross-train, and we have some people who do.

Well I would say you are a huge leg up on us. I hate to admit this but it's included into our applications.

It is taught as if you're executing the Kata on the ground. We are told that this was passed down and no one older than I will admit any differently but in my assessment someone at some point decided that a ground element was needed and made the Kata suite this need rather than it actually coming from the Kata.

I will say some of the applications work and are effective but I don't buy into it being extracted from the Kata nor does my research support this.

It is basically a hodge podge of techniques to get back to your feet. There is absolutely no viable techniques that would allow you to stay on the ground and battle an experienced grappler.

I completely agree with that. I've seen a number of people insist that kata are passing on groundwork techniques (mostly Naihanchi), and my research does not support that as being historically accurate, nor does my experience with grappling support it. Now, there are certainly techniques and postures in kata that can be applied on the ground, but the mechanics are different. I don't mind people going "this grappling technique is like the one from this kata, but you do it this way on the ground." That's different from "Naihanchi is a groundfighting kata." There are some historical examples of groundwork techniques from karate--Itoman's book has a few, for example--but nothing nearly as involved as you see in Judo, BJJ, or wrestling. That's what tegumi/muto was for.

[MatsuShinshii]

We actually do include a degree of newaza in our karate training, as well--mostly how to fall and how to extricate yourself from a variety of scenarios on the ground so you can get back to your feet. We do have a grappling program for those interested in more in-depth grappling training, although it is still supplemental for us. If someone wants a full grappling program, they would want to go cross-train, and we have some people who do.

Well I would say you are a huge leg up on us. I hate to admit this but it's included into our applications.

It is taught as if you're executing the Kata on the ground. We are told that this was passed down and no one older than I will admit any differently but in my assessment someone at some point decided that a ground element was needed and made the Kata suite this need rather than it actually coming from the Kata.

I will say some of the applications work and are effective but I don't buy into it being extracted from the Kata nor does my research support this.

It is basically a hodge podge of techniques to get back to your feet. There is absolutely no viable techniques that would allow you to stay on the ground and battle an experienced grappler.

I completely agree with that. I've seen a number of people insist that kata are passing on groundwork techniques (mostly Naihanchi), and my research does not support that as being historically accurate, nor does my experience with grappling support it. Now, there are certainly techniques and postures in kata that can be applied on the ground, but the mechanics are different. I don't mind people going "this grappling technique is like the one from this kata, but you do it this way on the ground." That's different from "Naihanchi is a groundfighting kata." There are some historical examples of groundwork techniques from karate--Itoman's book has a few, for example--but nothing nearly as involved as you see in Judo, BJJ, or wrestling. That's what tegumi/muto was for.

Agreed. I assume that your reference to Muto/ Tegumi is in reference to throws, take downs, sweeps, off balancing techniques and the like and not ground fighting?

If you do mean ground fighting I am definitely missing something and would love if you could point me in the right direction as my art and my research has never given me an example of ground fighting in terms of Muto/Tegumi.

If this is the case I am very excited to learn how this translates and how wrong I've been in terms of my art not containing any real ground fighting skills.

Can you clarify on this please?

[JR 137]

This is what I expected to find. I too utilize techniques that are not directly found in the Kata. This does not mean that they are not found within the art though.

Wastelander you mentioned Mawashi Geri, we also utilize this technique but classify it as coming from Ti rather than Toudi. If you look at Muay Boran, which influenced Ti, you find this kick executed to the outside/inside of the leg. We also utilize strikes not found within the Kata as well but can be found sprinkled through our Ti training.

I personally find no issue with incorporating other techniques for personal improvement. I just do not teach it as if it where apart of the art if it does not come from the art (Ti'gwa or Quan Fa). We teach this as, in addition to, the art.

Personally I would love to see Ne Waza incorporated as an, In Addition To, our art as an answer to the ground fighting that is so prevalent today. Our ground fighting, if you want to call it that, is weak at best and only covers getting back to the feet and not what to do if you get caught on the ground with a skilled ground fighting practitioner.

But this is not something that our organization believes in so it's up to the individual to find this outside of class.

I appreciate the responses and I'd like to say I was surprised but this is exactly what I expected to find. I think that this boils down to human nature in that if you do not have a tool for a specific job because it's not in your tool box, you'll go and find a tool that works. I find this to be in the spirit of the founders as they took many arts and condensed them into one.

However, and I may be alone on this, I still find no use for high or jump spinning kicks. I have studied and used them in different arts but find no use in actual conflicts. I'm sure others here do and that is great because whatever works for you is right. Just not right for me and as a result I do not teach them.

We have the Yoko Tobi Geri (flying/Jumping Side Kick) in our Kata and find no use for it either. Ironic, but I guess you don't have too many occasions to fight someone on horse back. Sarcasm!

IMO there’s a great reason for jumping, spinning, etc. kicks. Even kicks above one’s own waist - to develop athleticism, agility, coordination, etc. I don’t believe there’s any genuinely combative application for them, but that doesn’t make them worthless by any means. There’s no genuine combative application for pushups, squats, etc., but I don’t think anyone could say doing them is worthless.

I agree with you. I did not say that we do not utilize higher kicks to gain flexibility. We just do not use these exercises as real kicks for real scenario's.

In my experience and in all of the fights that I have been in over the years and those that I have seen there is one truth... close quarters.

Distance fighting only works if both parties wish to fight at a distance. So high kicks are impractical at best in 99.9% of a real fight. I'm sure someone will have a story about how they use them in real fights all of the time but in my experience they are useless other than to gain and remain flexible.

If it starts off at a distance or you have perfect timing and can get to a distance in order to throw one of these kicks before the distance is closed then great. However it's been my experience that I can close the distance thus negating the leg all together and take advantage of their lack of balance and bad positioning.

To each their own. Nothing says that I am an expert in all things and if high/jumping/spinning kicks work for you then ignore what I am saying. For me they do not work. Just one mans opinion and nothing more.

I’m not good at highlighting and chopping up posts...

I love what you say about the high/jumping/spinning kicks - they’re EXERCISES. Perfect way to describe them IMO. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the late 60s-mid 70s. They told me they did those kicks as line drills, but never did them sparring. Except MAYBE if they were being very casual (in a good way) during light sparring. They kicked thigh to rib height, and didn’t wear all the “armor.” Maybe that was exclusive to their school, general area, and/or era though.

And I agree - I’m sure there’s a few people who could pull those off in an actual fight, and im definitely not one of them either. Nor do I care much to be. I feel if I could pull off one of those in an actual fight, the guy I’m fighting has to be so bad that I might as well knock him out with a well placed punch or two. Doing one of those kicks would just be showing off.

[MatsuShinshii]

This is what I expected to find. I too utilize techniques that are not directly found in the Kata. This does not mean that they are not found within the art though.

Wastelander you mentioned Mawashi Geri, we also utilize this technique but classify it as coming from Ti rather than Toudi. If you look at Muay Boran, which influenced Ti, you find this kick executed to the outside/inside of the leg. We also utilize strikes not found within the Kata as well but can be found sprinkled through our Ti training.

I personally find no issue with incorporating other techniques for personal improvement. I just do not teach it as if it where apart of the art if it does not come from the art (Ti'gwa or Quan Fa). We teach this as, in addition to, the art.

Personally I would love to see Ne Waza incorporated as an, In Addition To, our art as an answer to the ground fighting that is so prevalent today. Our ground fighting, if you want to call it that, is weak at best and only covers getting back to the feet and not what to do if you get caught on the ground with a skilled ground fighting practitioner.

But this is not something that our organization believes in so it's up to the individual to find this outside of class.

I appreciate the responses and I'd like to say I was surprised but this is exactly what I expected to find. I think that this boils down to human nature in that if you do not have a tool for a specific job because it's not in your tool box, you'll go and find a tool that works. I find this to be in the spirit of the founders as they took many arts and condensed them into one.

However, and I may be alone on this, I still find no use for high or jump spinning kicks. I have studied and used them in different arts but find no use in actual conflicts. I'm sure others here do and that is great because whatever works for you is right. Just not right for me and as a result I do not teach them.

We have the Yoko Tobi Geri (flying/Jumping Side Kick) in our Kata and find no use for it either. Ironic, but I guess you don't have too many occasions to fight someone on horse back. Sarcasm!

IMO there’s a great reason for jumping, spinning, etc. kicks. Even kicks above one’s own waist - to develop athleticism, agility, coordination, etc. I don’t believe there’s any genuinely combative application for them, but that doesn’t make them worthless by any means. There’s no genuine combative application for pushups, squats, etc., but I don’t think anyone could say doing them is worthless.

I agree with you. I did not say that we do not utilize higher kicks to gain flexibility. We just do not use these exercises as real kicks for real scenario's.

In my experience and in all of the fights that I have been in over the years and those that I have seen there is one truth... close quarters.

Distance fighting only works if both parties wish to fight at a distance. So high kicks are impractical at best in 99.9% of a real fight. I'm sure someone will have a story about how they use them in real fights all of the time but in my experience they are useless other than to gain and remain flexible.

If it starts off at a distance or you have perfect timing and can get to a distance in order to throw one of these kicks before the distance is closed then great. However it's been my experience that I can close the distance thus negating the leg all together and take advantage of their lack of balance and bad positioning.

To each their own. Nothing says that I am an expert in all things and if high/jumping/spinning kicks work for you then ignore what I am saying. For me they do not work. Just one mans opinion and nothing more.

I’m not good at highlighting and chopping up posts...

I love what you say about the high/jumping/spinning kicks - they’re EXERCISES. Perfect way to describe them IMO. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the late 60s-mid 70s. They told me they did those kicks as line drills, but never did them sparring. Except MAYBE if they were being very casual (in a good way) during light sparring. They kicked thigh to rib height, and didn’t wear all the “armor.” Maybe that was exclusive to their school, general area, and/or era though.

And I agree - I’m sure there’s a few people who could pull those off in an actual fight, and im definitely not one of them either. Nor do I care much to be. I feel if I could pull off one of those in an actual fight, the guy I’m fighting has to be so bad that I might as well knock him out with a well placed punch or two. Doing one of those kicks would just be showing off.

Well put and this definitely describes my views as well. That and I'm too old to be spinning and jumping around.

[Wastelander]

We actually do include a degree of newaza in our karate training, as well--mostly how to fall and how to extricate yourself from a variety of scenarios on the ground so you can get back to your feet. We do have a grappling program for those interested in more in-depth grappling training, although it is still supplemental for us. If someone wants a full grappling program, they would want to go cross-train, and we have some people who do.

Well I would say you are a huge leg up on us. I hate to admit this but it's included into our applications.

It is taught as if you're executing the Kata on the ground. We are told that this was passed down and no one older than I will admit any differently but in my assessment someone at some point decided that a ground element was needed and made the Kata suite this need rather than it actually coming from the Kata.

I will say some of the applications work and are effective but I don't buy into it being extracted from the Kata nor does my research support this.

It is basically a hodge podge of techniques to get back to your feet. There is absolutely no viable techniques that would allow you to stay on the ground and battle an experienced grappler.

I completely agree with that. I've seen a number of people insist that kata are passing on groundwork techniques (mostly Naihanchi), and my research does not support that as being historically accurate, nor does my experience with grappling support it. Now, there are certainly techniques and postures in kata that can be applied on the ground, but the mechanics are different. I don't mind people going "this grappling technique is like the one from this kata, but you do it this way on the ground." That's different from "Naihanchi is a groundfighting kata." There are some historical examples of groundwork techniques from karate--Itoman's book has a few, for example--but nothing nearly as involved as you see in Judo, BJJ, or wrestling. That's what tegumi/muto was for.

Agreed. I assume that your reference to Muto/ Tegumi is in reference to throws, take downs, sweeps, off balancing techniques and the like and not ground fighting?

If you do mean ground fighting I am definitely missing something and would love if you could point me in the right direction as my art and my research has never given me an example of ground fighting in terms of Muto/Tegumi.

If this is the case I am very excited to learn how this translates and how wrong I've been in terms of my art not containing any real ground fighting skills.

Can you clarify on this please?

If I recall correctly, either Nagamine or Funakoshi, or possibly both, included mention of "pinning the opponent to the ground" in their description of tegumi, which would indicate at least some degree of groundwork. I could be wrong--I would have to dig through the books again.