Knee spring in any Karate style?

[Prototype]

Originally, ITF TaeKwondo performed punching according to the same principles as Shotokan: jerk the hip, tense the abdomen etc.

Then they played around in the 70s and added a very peculiar thing called knee spring, in which you spring the back knee slightly by raising the body upwards and down before you punch.

It is demonstrated below, watch closely:

Now, does any Karate style adhere to this principle of punching? It makes no sense to spring the knee without punching afterwards... Springing the knee is meant as a weight transfer from the back leg to the front leg. But in TaeKwondo, you are supposed to spring the knee, then set it to the ground, THEN punch. Making the motion irrelevant for power generation.

Later they added an additional step (Sinewave), which is to go down, then up, then down. But let's stick to knee spring for the purposes of this thread.

Knee spring and sine wave are two different things.

Knee spring creates sine wave.

Knee spring is in all (ITF) movements. Sine wave is only in movements which travel or involve a stance change (but not all stance changes).

But in TaeKwondo, you are supposed to spring the knee, then set it to the ground, THEN punch. Making the motion irrelevant for power generation.

This is not true. In ITF Taekwon-Do you never finish the leg before the punch. Everything MUST finish at the same moment. The punch should finish as the leg drives straight and locks the stance.

I'll admit that the movements you see nowadays are over the top with this movement (often for competition) but from what I've seen recently there is a conscious effort now to reign it back.

For knee spring:

2.[i]"The heel of the rear foot should be raised slightly off the ground at the beginning of the motion and placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact"

This negates the weight transfer meant by lifting the heel done in boxing to generate power, because you are supposed to switch weifght to the front foot and keep the back legs heel slightly up. In ITF TKD you set the back leg however to the ground and then punch. I know since I have a red belt in it.

[Prototype]

There are independent, traditional ITF style school that still punches the Karate way but they spend time on perfecting double twisting aerial kicks.. Demo type stuff that isn't even in the patterns. No thanks.

[mushybees]

For knee spring:

2."The heel of the rear foot should be raised slightly off the ground at the beginning of the motion and placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact"

 

I have no experience in TKD but if the mechanics are as you described it appears to be trying to generate power through dropping body weight at the same time as impact, not before as you described initially.

[Prototype]

For knee spring:

2."The heel of the rear foot should be raised slightly off the ground at the beginning of the motion and placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact"

 

I have no experience in TKD but if the mechanics are as you described it appears to be trying to generate power through dropping body weight at the same time as impact, not before as you described initially.

 

Dropping the heal at the same time as punching or before is equally bad.

 

You don't gain power from dropping you weight without any direction in on it. It is a complete misunderstanding of bodymechanics. the only way it would be applicable is if you punched or hammerfisted downwards

[Wado Heretic]

Unlike Japanese and Korean Karate; Okinawan orthodox karate very rarely takes a concept from one kata, and then makes it universal to general practice. However, there are several kata where you can find ideas like the knee-spring performed; often transitioning from one stance to another, because it is a natural way to generate power. You can also find some examples of the Sine-Wave motion, in spirit, in kata such as Annaku and to an extent Passai; where one moves one’s centre of gravity to facilitate a technique.

So is it in karate styles per se; I would say no off the top of my head. I cannot think of any system of karate which utilises it as a globalised concept. However, if one looks hard enough, in can be found in some of the kata.

The only style I can think of which has anything similar is Tani-Ha Shito-Ryu, and by extension Shukokai, which both employ the principle of kick-shock; which like the knee-spring, is about the use of the leg to generate power.

[DWx]

For knee spring:

2.[i]"The heel of the rear foot should be raised slightly off the ground at the beginning of the motion and placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact"

This negates the weight transfer meant by lifting the heel done in boxing to generate power, because you are supposed to switch weifght to the front foot and keep the back legs heel slightly up. In ITF TKD you set the back leg however to the ground and then punch. I know since I have a red belt in it.

I suggest you might want to discuss this with your instructor so that they can show you in person. However I can assure you that stance and punch finish as one, not leg first then hand. If they don't finish together there is something really wrong (by ITF standards).

Dropping the heal at the same time as punching or before is equally bad.

You don't gain power from dropping you weight without any direction in on it. It is a complete misunderstanding of bodymechanics. the only way it would be applicable is if you punched or hammerfisted downwards

I think there is some misunderstanding of the purpose of the two movements.

Knee spring in a static stance is meant to facilitate the hip. Rather than down-up-down, it is better to think of it as relax-expand-contract. Think the opening block-punch of Do San. Relaxing in the stance results in unlocking the back leg and a slight bend. Drawing back the hip is "up" and then firing the punch and locking the back leg is down again.

As per my previous post sine wave in the truest sense is only for when your feet move; either for stepping or for stance changes. Here again the initial "down" part is better described as "relax". "Up" happens because your feet come up to a neutral standing position which is naturally higher. Then "down" happens when you reform the stance.

I will say if you are looking through Gen Choi's Encyclopedia you can't take everything at face value. It was originally written in Korean and then translated to English and there are translation mistakes. This is why it is important to train with seniors and attend IIC and ITS seminars (once you reach blackbelt). They key is in how you interpret the words.

[DWx]

Nothing described in the OP is found in Okinawan karate schools. Power generation comes from the core area and short direct movements are stressed. Sine-wave and knee spring seems to be something exclusive to modern Taekwondo and similar Korean arts. Perhaps the change might have been at least in part to make TKD different from Shotokan.

I don't think you're wrong there. In fact most people would say this is one of the reasons why it was added to ITF TKD.

[Prototype]

Nothing described in the OP is found in Okinawan karate schools. Power generation comes from the core area and short direct movements are stressed. Sine-wave and knee spring seems to be something exclusive to modern Taekwondo and similar Korean arts. Perhaps the change might have been at least in part to make TKD different from Shotokan.

I don't think you're wrong there. In fact most people would say this is one of the reasons why it was added to ITF TKD.

The KKW/WTF didnt though, they still punch karate style. Also, traditional TKD schools still punch the Shotokan way as you can see here http://www.taekwondo-pdx.com/gallery/videos/

Traditional Taekwondo schools aren't available everywhere though, and not all all traditional schools are Chang Hon (ITF pattern) style.

[Prototype]

Again, Sine-wave is not knee spring style! . Sine wave is down, up down. Knee spring is up, down. Also, both Knee spring and Sine wave is used in sitting stances, so it not just for when you move. Also from still walking stances with punches thrown, are you told to spring the knee or do the sine wave bounce

[DWx]

Nothing described in the OP is found in Okinawan karate schools. Power generation comes from the core area and short direct movements are stressed. Sine-wave and knee spring seems to be something exclusive to modern Taekwondo and similar Korean arts. Perhaps the change might have been at least in part to make TKD different from Shotokan.

I don't think you're wrong there. In fact most people would say this is one of the reasons why it was added to ITF TKD.

The KKW/WTF didnt though, they still punch karate style. Also, traditional TKD schools still punch the Shotokan way as you can see here http://www.taekwondo-pdx.com/gallery/videos/

Traditional Taekwondo schools aren't available everywhere though, and not all all traditional schools are Chang Hon (ITF pattern) style.

My point was that you can make a very good case for General Choi incorporating sine wave into his style because he was trying to make his TKD the "best TKD" and different from everyone else and from Karate. It was as much political as it was technical.

It wasn't added to KKW/WTF because at the point it was introduced (during the 80's), the WTF was already a separate entity and nothing to do with the General.