Does Shotokan have the flashiest/coolest katas?

[JR 137]

Why does Shorin Ryu have this salsa-like chaking motions with the hips when performing kata? I don't see it in the other Karate styles like Goju Ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin

I think I know what you’re talking about, but I’m not 100% sure. Could you post a link for an example?

If it’s what I’m thinking about, it’s for power generation.

Why was it rejected by Funakoshi?

It is for power generation, although it is often exaggerated in training, both for biomechanical study, and to account for the shrinking effect of stress/adrenaline. Not all Shorin-Ryu people use the hips that much, and some use it more. Just as an example of the range you can find, below are videos of Uema Yasuhiro, myself, and Shinzato Katsuhiko, all running Naihanchi Shodan, but with drastically different hip usage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBKAZ3WxX78

https://www.instagram.com/p/BbCed1qlJUW/?taken-by=karateobsession

Plenty of Goju-Ryu people use the hips that way, as well. Also, some of the hardest punches I have seen thrown by Kyokushin fighters have been done with very effective "hip quaking," as we call it in our system, despite them not doing it in kata. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't rejected by Funakoshi, and you can see some evidence of that in old Shotokan footage. Now, it is possible that Funakoshi Gichin didn't learn how to use the hips in that way, or wasn't very good at it, or simply didn't like it. I tend to think that, if he did know how to do it, the stances are what killed it in Shotokan.

As we can see from his books, Funakoshi Gichin used the more natural Okinawan stances of Shorin-Ryu. It was his son, Funakoshi Gigo, that lowered and lengthened them to what we see today. The trouble is, once you make your stances as long and low as modern Shotokan has become, you CAN'T move your hips the way you are referring to. The hips simply don't have enough range of motion left. These stances also cause a lot of strain and wear on the hips and lower back, which is why so many senior practitioners of styles of karate that use such stances have bad hips and back pain, at least in my experience. That actually goes to your second post regarding their ability to kick--it's hard to kick well if your hips are in pain. Now, that is easily adjusted by going back to higher, more natural stances as you age, regardless of the style you practice, but I know plenty of dojo where such compromise isn't acceptable, so that could be an issue in that regard.

Is Shinzato Katsuhiko doing the kata that way for the video, as in demonstration purposes, or is that how he actually teaches the kata? I haven’t seen it performed that slowly and deliberately before; not that I’m criticizing it by any means.

I’ve heard the theories you state on why Shotokan doesn’t use it much. They make sense. I doubt Gichin Funakoshi didn’t learn it, but agree the rest are plausible.

A high ranking karateka I know who’s studied in Okinawa and Japan for extended periods of time told me another theory - it is somewhat difficult to teach how to properly and effectively use the hips like that, and it takes a long time (relatively speaking) for the student to truly use it effectively. In a small setting it’s relatively easy to make constant corrections, but when Funakoshi started teaching large numbers in Japan, it was probably too difficult to give individual attention, so he most likely dropped it in favor of an easier way that he felt was still effective.

One of Funakoshi’s concerns at that time was getting karate accepted as part of physical education curriculum. It was sold to the Japanese government as a way to prepare students for military service. These things combined could be the reason Funakoshi didn’t teach it. If he didn’t teach it on the mainland, it wouldn’t have been passed down to his students, thereby basically eliminating it altogether over the course of a generation or two of Shotokan students.

I personally think he knew that way, but dropped it due to a combination of all the listed factors rather than just one, with teaching a lot of students at the same time being the biggest single factor.

Gigo Funakoshi reportedly changed his father’s karate quite a bit. Gichin Funakoshi never pointed at his son, but Gichin Funakoshi did imply he didn’t like where Shotokan was headed and it was becoming unrecognizable compared to his karate and intents near his death. I’m pretty sure it was stated near the end of his autobiography. At that time, I think his son was pretty much running Shotokan.

As a side note, you still see the hip emphasis in Sanchin kata in Kyokushin and offshoots.

[Wado Heretic]

From a traditional perspective, I would probably argue that Inoue-Ha Shito-Ryu probably possesses the coolest kata. After all, the coaching of Inoue Yoshimi produced Mie Nakayama, Rika Usami, and Antonio Diaz. Names that should be quite familiar to those who follow kata competition. Rika Usami is the person I most recommend people watch when it comes to trying to appreciate kata. The way his students perform have that unique mix of poise, grace, and power that is rare to find, and the moments of sheer athleticism are left to where appropriate so that they stand out.

In terms of flashiest; you cannot really reach above the absurdity of Extreme martial arts (XMA) which combine martial arts with acrobatics and gymnastics. Free-Style Karate, which exists as a vehicle for competition, and the American Kenpo Karate tradition have also produced some uniquely “Flashy” kata too. Some of the native Kata of Tae Kwon Do are also rather flashy, in that there are techniques you would not find in traditional kata; for example, high-side kicks, and even turning kicks. I do prefer to give TKD forms the benefit of the doubt though, because several I have seen, are very good for practicing basic techniques or even combinations.

You then have ways of performing Kata which are different, and thus are cool or flashy, in that they go against expectations:

Shotokai, a direct cousin of modern JKA Shotokan, has an approach of minimum contraction and absolute commitment to a technique. Unfortunately, this means many practitioners look sloppy when performing its kata. However, the best of Shotokai karateka do have an oddly compelling look to the way they move.

Tani-Ha Shito-Ryu, and Shukokai, kata can look different from other versions because of many of the underlying principles being slightly different from other schools. Most of the details are minute, but to a trained eye can be entertaining to watch for.

Chito-Ryu evolved from a relatively heterodox tradition, so again, it’s kata is very distinct from the main-stream. Ryuei-ryu is quite similar in that respect, and is of course the system practiced by Tsuguo Sakumoto; whose performance of Anan has yet to be surpassed, in my opinion.

Ashihara and Enshin Karate kata were both developed with competition in mind, and in a lot of ways appear more like pre-arranged shadow boxing, than a traditional kata. Thus, they can make for interesting viewing.

I would argue that Shotokan in many respects does not in fact stand out from the crowd. If one looks at the advanced kata past the Pinan (Heian), Naihanchi (Tekki), and Kusanku (Kanku); the kata are not all that distinct from the versions found in Wado-Ryu, Shito-Ryu, or Shorin-Ryu. This, of course, makes sense as Funakoshi was Ohtsuka’s primary instructor, and Mabuni and Chibana trained under Itosu at roughly the same time. What I would say though, is that after the influence of Gigo Funakoshi, and later Kise and Nakayama; that deep, long stances became a visual cue of Shotokan, as did an exaggerated level of Kime (or fixture) on techniques, and performing kata with intensity and big movements. Thus, I would say that is not the kata of Shotokan that are cool or flashy, but rather the result of the training culture of Shotokan. The stances have become deeper, so the contrast and angles are more obvious, which has a certain aesthetic appeal, compared to the more natural stances of other approaches. The big movements are not necessarily practical, but they can be seen and against the air they look powerful; even if making the moment so big detracts from the intended application. Basically; take any kata from the Itosu tradition, increase the stance size and perform the movements as big as possible, and you will get a similar result.

That is not to detract from the Kata of Shotokan, or to say they do not have unique elements, but rather illustrates that the differences emerged as part of a change in training culture, rather than decisions made in advance. Also, that the kata are largely interchangeable, and that the differences seen are often nebulous, and the reasons they emerged not always logical.

Regarding Shorin-Ryu and the hip movement; it is power generation to an extent, but is also to do with pelvic alignment, and can also hint at what you are supposed to be doing with the front hand when applying the movements.

I personally suspect that it is in-fact a very late innovation of Itosu’s, or even an innovation of Chibana’s further developed by his students; which is why it is seen in Shorin-Ryu today, but is not apparent in the Karate of Funakoshi, Mabuni, or Motobu, even though they were all students of Itosu. I do agree with Wastelander, though, that there is also a distinct possibility that such approaches simply disappeared in the evolutionary path that some descendent schools took in comparison to that of Shorin-Ryu. Regarding, its appearance in other styles with no direct link to Itosu, or Chibana, then I

would argue two points:

1. There are only so many ways to move the human body effectively.

2. Concurrent development; in trying to solve the same problem, they stumbled upon the same solution.

Kyokushin being a great example, where hitting hard is the name of the game. So, it does not necessarily mean such a movement was ever universal in Okinawan Karate. For example; it is not prevalent in Isshin-Ryu or Uechi-Ryu.

Also; regarding deliberate movement. In Japanese Karate; the trend is to try and do everything at once. In Okinawan Karate, it is more important to do what needs to be done as it needs to be done. Neither approach is necessarily wrong, but they do produce a different way of performing kata.

[Prototype]

Ironically, I just watched Jesse Enkamp talking about how some Karate styles exaggerate hip movements, and did the exact same salsa-like motion as performed in Shorin Ryu.

[MatsuShinshii]

Why does Shorin Ryu have this salsa-like shaking motions with the hips when performing kata? I don't see it in the other Karate styles like Goju Ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin

Simple answer - to generate power.

[MatsuShinshii]

As much as I love Shotokan, I have seen some chief instructors who can't kick to save their lives (very stiff side and roundhouse kicks) , most can punch though. Are kicks a relatively low priority in Shotokan given their conservative use in Katas?

I know some will disagree with me for what I am about to say but... in old school Karate, pre-Japanization, there were not the plethora of kicks found today in most modern arts. The Japanese added kicks to the Kihon curriculum. Korean arts also had a lot to do with added kicks to the curriculum of some arts. After all who wants to perform a Tsumasaki instead of an ultra cool jump spinning crescent kick or the like. They just look so much cooler.

If you think in terms of distance and risk, very few kicks are needed. For distance - if you have been in a real fight close range is the predominate range. It might start at a longer range but quickly turns into close range. Very few of the kicks portrayed in a schools Kihon actually are used in the Kata. They have been added. As far as risk - higher kicks add risk to the practitioner as they can be caught and their balance is sacrificed or can be taken advantage of during high kicks. Power generation and economy of motion plays a large factor as well.

We do not use these kicks and practice only the kicks portrayed in our Kata.

[G95champ]

Many styles share many of the kata, because Shotokan took it from them. So the kata is not better however, I do think the traditional Shotokan dojo preforms those said kata with much more dymanic movements. With a real understanding for fast vs slow, strong vs soft, high vs low, sharp vs smooth, etc etc etc