When do you turn over full knowledge?

[singularity6]

A thought just occurred to me that maybe this is a business decision. Maybe the student that pays the most gets taught the most. Too cynical?

Again the concept escapes me.

I think I better-understand your original post, now. Some martial artists claim that they should never teach everything to the student (some old-world idea about a student betraying the instructor nonsense.) To me, I feel that knowledge should be passed on, and should never die with one who held it before.

[Wado Heretic]

My pragmatic response would be this; some knowledge dies with us all. Maybe because the way we approached a technique was uniquely our own, and we never had a student that could emulate that personal approach. Perhaps we have never been asked the right question to invite the divulging of some knowledge, that we would otherwise not think to share. Similarly; we encounter questions we never thought to ask our teachers, and suddenly realise, we did not receive the full extent of their knowledge.

Wilfully holding back though, is foolish, if we take the above into account. Something will die with us, but if we provide all we can, those that come after us can find their own answers to the questions they failed to ask.

Anyway; I would say it is wise to hold-back until a student is ready to progress. I admit, I have frustrated students in the past because they think they are doing well because I am not giving them many corrections; but that is because I teach in a layered approach. So when I feel they are ready to progress, I come along and give the critique, and the next element they need to work on. Some get demotivated by this, but most accept that I just hold back until I feel they are ready to progress.

There are a few, dangerous things, I do not readily teach just because I would not like a student to consider said dangerous things a go to tool in self-defence. Similarly; I do not teach my students who are interested in self-defence, and traditional karate, too much from my knowledge of Kick-Boxing and Shoot-fighting. In the same sense I do not make my students who intend to compete engage in Kobujutsu practice, or application work beyond Kiso Kumite and Oyo Bunkai. It would be redundant for their training goals. I also have kata I have learnt in my own time, and certain techniques not in the syllabus, that I do not readily teach; except to students I feel would benefit.

So; I would say context really gives the meaning of holding back. Holding back for the sake of it is reckless, and back ward thinking. Holding back because the knowledge is unnecessary to that student is just being conscious of your students growth.

[sensei8]

Holding back anything that's Shindokan is repugnant to me across the board, and inexcusable!! Just who do we think that we are that we hold thing back as though we are the sole owners of Shindokan?!?!

Soke told us all that Shindokan is for everyone, and not just for the few selected ones no matter what.

Soke declared that he had only one student; Dai-Soke Takahashi, even though the entire SKKA Student Body were, in fact, students of Soke. Whereas, Soke gave his positional propriety over the SKKA Student Body over to Dai-Soke. The one thing that caused me to scratch my head over was when Soke made Dai-Soke his Menkyo Kaiden, which I've always taken to be a Japanese thing, and not an Okinawan thing. But, him being Soke, he can do whatever he wants to do without anyone's approval!!

Soke writes that he's never held anything back for the sake of just holding things back because the students are the vessel that, so being it, mitigates the continuation of the essence of Shindokan, which is just nothing more than a thing. The core of Shindokan has its essence found within the proponents of Shindokan.

I've been taught, in that I teach, in which they will teach Shindokan. To hold anything back from the Student Body stagnates the learning curve, in which the knowledge is stalled from the experience. Tainting what is Shindokan is selfish, and in that, Soke's desire that Shindokan is for every student, and not just the few lacks progress for the future generations of Shindokan students.

To hold something back that doesn't belong to you is the measure of mistrust. To hold something back, as though ownership was approved of, in which it never was, isn't an embolden act. To hold something back as though you believe that you are looking out for the betterment of the student isn't admiral, but it's forbearing.

Students come to learn, and this means that they've come to learn everything without prejudice!! Teach progressively, but do not teach restrictively as though we know what's the very best for every students MA betterment. To me, that's ego, and ego doesn't exist between Sensei and Student. In short, the Student Body isn't our property, to do so with as we desire as though we own each student; and that's the furthest thing from the truth.

Teach me, don't I learn?!?! Not if things are held back. Things being held back means that teaching isn't being preformed, but instead, teaching is being the most unnatural element between Sensei and Student!!

No, I haven't ever held back anything Shindokan, not before, not now, and not in the future!! If I ever should, no matter the reason(s), then I no longer deserve the trust that I've been entrusted with from my students, and to do that, dispels the honor and loyalty handed down to me from Soke and Dai-Soke. To do so, dishonors the sanctity of the floor, which is holy ground.

[The Pred]

Holding back anything that's Shindokan is repugnant to me across the board, and inexcusable!! Just who do we think that we are that we hold thing back as though we are the sole owners of Shindokan?!?!

Soke told us all that Shindokan is for everyone, and not just for the few selected ones no matter what.

Soke declared that he had only one student; Dai-Soke Takahashi, even though the entire SKKA Student Body were, in fact, students of Soke. Whereas, Soke gave his positional propriety over the SKKA Student Body over to Dai-Soke. The one thing that caused me to scratch my head over was when Soke made Dai-Soke his Menkyo Kaiden, which I've always taken to be a Japanese thing, and not an Okinawan thing. But, him being Soke, he can do whatever he wants to do without anyone's approval!!

Soke writes that he's never held anything back for the sake of just holding things back because the students are the vessel that, so being it, mitigates the continuation of the essence of Shindokan, which is just nothing more than a thing. The core of Shindokan has its essence found within the proponents of Shindokan.

I've been taught, in that I teach, in which they will teach Shindokan. To hold anything back from the Student Body stagnates the learning curve, in which the knowledge is stalled from the experience. Tainting what is Shindokan is selfish, and in that, Soke's desire that Shindokan is for every student, and not just the few lacks progress for the future generations of Shindokan students.

To hold something back that doesn't belong to you is the measure of mistrust. To hold something back, as though ownership was approved of, in which it never was, isn't an embolden act. To hold something back as though you believe that you are looking out for the betterment of the student isn't admiral, but it's forbearing.

Students come to learn, and this means that they've come to learn everything without prejudice!! Teach progressively, but do not teach restrictively as though we know what's the very best for every students MA betterment. To me, that's ego, and ego doesn't exist between Sensei and Student. In short, the Student Body isn't our property, to do so with as we desire as though we own each student; and that's the furthest thing from the truth.

Teach me, don't I learn?!?! Not if things are held back. Things being held back means that teaching isn't being preformed, but instead, teaching is being the most unnatural element between Sensei and Student!!

No, I haven't ever held back anything Shindokan, not before, not now, and not in the future!! If I ever should, no matter the reason(s), then I no longer deserve the trust that I've been entrusted with from my students, and to do that, dispels the honor and loyalty handed down to me from Soke and Dai-Soke. To do so, dishonors the sanctity of the floor, which is holy ground.

Does the Menkyo Kaiden still exist within your organization?

[MatsuShinshii]

My pragmatic response would be this; some knowledge dies with us all. Maybe because the way we approached a technique was uniquely our own, and we never had a student that could emulate that personal approach. Perhaps we have never been asked the right question to invite the divulging of some knowledge, that we would otherwise not think to share. Similarly; we encounter questions we never thought to ask our teachers, and suddenly realise, we did not receive the full extent of their knowledge.

Wilfully holding back though, is foolish, if we take the above into account. Something will die with us, but if we provide all we can, those that come after us can find their own answers to the questions they failed to ask.

Anyway; I would say it is wise to hold-back until a student is ready to progress. I admit, I have frustrated students in the past because they think they are doing well because I am not giving them many corrections; but that is because I teach in a layered approach. So when I feel they are ready to progress, I come along and give the critique, and the next element they need to work on. Some get demotivated by this, but most accept that I just hold back until I feel they are ready to progress.

There are a few, dangerous things, I do not readily teach just because I would not like a student to consider said dangerous things a go to tool in self-defence. Similarly; I do not teach my students who are interested in self-defence, and traditional karate, too much from my knowledge of Kick-Boxing and Shoot-fighting. In the same sense I do not make my students who intend to compete engage in Kobujutsu practice, or application work beyond Kiso Kumite and Oyo Bunkai. It would be redundant for their training goals. I also have kata I have learnt in my own time, and certain techniques not in the syllabus, that I do not readily teach; except to students I feel would benefit.

So; I would say context really gives the meaning of holding back. Holding back for the sake of it is reckless, and back ward thinking. Holding back because the knowledge is unnecessary to that student is just being conscious of your students growth.

Well said sir. Thanks for the explanation.

[MatsuShinshii]

A thought just occurred to me that maybe this is a business decision. Maybe the student that pays the most gets taught the most. Too cynical?

Again the concept escapes me.

I think I better-understand your original post, now. Some martial artists claim that they should never teach everything to the student (some old-world idea about a student betraying the instructor nonsense.) To me, I feel that knowledge should be passed on, and should never die with one who held it before.

In my experience, and I study an old school art, this has never been the case. I believe my Shinshii taught me all that he knew.

I agree that all knowledge should be passed on to ones students.

[MatsuShinshii]

After discussing this a bit more with my friend he brought to light something I have not considered before. He said that there are 3 types of students in his experience. 1. those that truly wish to learn and give 100% all of the time. 2. Those that are just there to get a BB. 3. Those that are just there for something to do and only put forth a limited amount of effort or whatever they can get away with. He said that his comment was more posed towards the later two groups of students.

In thinking about this, I asked him why doesn't he just kick the belt chasers and the minimum effort students out and concentrate on the ones that are there for the right reasons? He said that the ones that were there for the right reasons only make up 10% of his classes and if he did that he could no longer make the rent.

I have not experienced this issue in that I interview perspective students before accepting them. Of course I have no rent to make nor do I depend on teaching for a pay check so this is a really easy concept for me. However I do understand his question a lot clearer now that I have his reasons for asking it.

So now I must change my question to - If you had an overwhelming number of students that you knew would only be in your school until they received their BB's and those that put forth minimum effort with no real passion for what they were doing would you hold any knowledge back?

If I depended on students to pay the rent and as a pay check, I'm not sure how I would deal with this as I have never been in his position. However after considering it I think I would still teach the same way in hopes that the belt chasers and minimum effort students would fall in love with the art and change their focus.

[Alan Armstrong]

If the CI is holding back information, when the student is ready to receive it, this is very wrong.

Very difficult for a student to know this has happened, until it is too late; unless another student points it out.

Continually falling back on the repetition of the basics, as not progressing, could be just an excuse, or perhaps not, as this to some CI's is considered as improving.

The CI's that hold back information to students, could be that they have a reserved personality, whereas others are the opposite, tirelessly making their students as great as possible, to reach their potential.

[Wastelander]

After discussing this a bit more with my friend he brought to light something I have not considered before. He said that there are 3 types of students in his experience. 1. those that truly wish to learn and give 100% all of the time. 2. Those that are just there to get a BB. 3. Those that are just there for something to do and only put forth a limited amount of effort or whatever they can get away with. He said that his comment was more posed towards the later two groups of students.

In thinking about this, I asked him why doesn't he just kick the belt chasers and the minimum effort students out and concentrate on the ones that are there for the right reasons? He said that the ones that were there for the right reasons only make up 10% of his classes and if he did that he could no longer make the rent.

I have not experienced this issue in that I interview perspective students before accepting them. Of course I have no rent to make nor do I depend on teaching for a pay check so this is a really easy concept for me. However I do understand his question a lot clearer now that I have his reasons for asking it.

So now I must change my question to - If you had an overwhelming number of students that you knew would only be in your school until they received their BB's and those that put forth minimum effort with no real passion for what they were doing would you hold any knowledge back?

If I depended on students to pay the rent and as a pay check, I'm not sure how I would deal with this as I have never been in his position. However after considering it I think I would still teach the same way in hopes that the belt chasers and minimum effort students would fall in love with the art and change their focus.

I would absolutely continue trying to teach everything, for the very reason you mention. I would rather have the possibility of sparking someone's interest and dedication to the art, then just assume they are going to leave and abandon them.

[sensei8]

Holding back anything that's Shindokan is repugnant to me across the board, and inexcusable!! Just who do we think that we are that we hold thing back as though we are the sole owners of Shindokan?!?!

Soke told us all that Shindokan is for everyone, and not just for the few selected ones no matter what.

Soke declared that he had only one student; Dai-Soke Takahashi, even though the entire SKKA Student Body were, in fact, students of Soke. Whereas, Soke gave his positional propriety over the SKKA Student Body over to Dai-Soke. The one thing that caused me to scratch my head over was when Soke made Dai-Soke his Menkyo Kaiden, which I've always taken to be a Japanese thing, and not an Okinawan thing. But, him being Soke, he can do whatever he wants to do without anyone's approval!!

Soke writes that he's never held anything back for the sake of just holding things back because the students are the vessel that, so being it, mitigates the continuation of the essence of Shindokan, which is just nothing more than a thing. The core of Shindokan has its essence found within the proponents of Shindokan.

I've been taught, in that I teach, in which they will teach Shindokan. To hold anything back from the Student Body stagnates the learning curve, in which the knowledge is stalled from the experience. Tainting what is Shindokan is selfish, and in that, Soke's desire that Shindokan is for every student, and not just the few lacks progress for the future generations of Shindokan students.

To hold something back that doesn't belong to you is the measure of mistrust. To hold something back, as though ownership was approved of, in which it never was, isn't an embolden act. To hold something back as though you believe that you are looking out for the betterment of the student isn't admiral, but it's forbearing.

Students come to learn, and this means that they've come to learn everything without prejudice!! Teach progressively, but do not teach restrictively as though we know what's the very best for every students MA betterment. To me, that's ego, and ego doesn't exist between Sensei and Student. In short, the Student Body isn't our property, to do so with as we desire as though we own each student; and that's the furthest thing from the truth.

Teach me, don't I learn?!?! Not if things are held back. Things being held back means that teaching isn't being preformed, but instead, teaching is being the most unnatural element between Sensei and Student!!

No, I haven't ever held back anything Shindokan, not before, not now, and not in the future!! If I ever should, no matter the reason(s), then I no longer deserve the trust that I've been entrusted with from my students, and to do that, dispels the honor and loyalty handed down to me from Soke and Dai-Soke. To do so, dishonors the sanctity of the floor, which is holy ground.

Does the Menkyo Kaiden still exist within your organization?

No!! Menkyo Kaiden was eradicated when the new SKKA By-Laws were amended whenever the SKKA was reorganized.