Where the average Karate school falls short!

[Luther unleashed]

Man a lot of great well thought out replies here. A quick point to Sensei as it sounds like he took offense in a way. I was saying what you are saying, that most “schools” I see spend too much time drilling and unrealistic drilling at that. You said “don’t like drilling quit karate” but sir I have never had as much drilling (thankfully) as some schools I see. I also agree it depends on the school and instructor. I do mostly a Korean version of Karate but it is common to see drills just as it is in other styles. Just not a fan.

Alan Armstrong, I’m not sure what your saying exactly. I am not complaining about “my” training. I’m offering insight about what I see because o felt it would be a good topic. I consider myself very lucky to have a very mixed background in martial arts, and to have instructors who didn’t place such high emphasis on drills.

Of course we drilled, BUT I’m not saying drills are bad, I’m saying too much is bad and that too many schools do too much without any real resistance or just to slow to give students anything to really develop. I have no need to seek anything as you have described. I prefer traditional Arts, because it’s not all about fighting, but for the portion that is, I’m not interested in doing slow, weak resistance drills over and over. Sparring is much more like a real fight. I say this as a person who grew up fighting as a youth. A fight feels like sparring more then any setting I have seen in martial arts.

Thanks to everybody for offering great input. A plethora of knowledge is this forum. Take care.

[Alan Armstrong]

Perhaps kick boxing, Muay Thai, TKD, JKD, would be better for your development, especially JKD as it's open to what works best for the individual.

In JKD your input for the better, can change the curriculum, whereas, a style is designed to be drilled and not changed, as one style fits all like it or not; like it or leave it.

There is a deeper side to martial arts, that is not often talked about, that concerns its ineffectiveness against what is not taught.

The element of surprise, as not knowing what it is going to happen, then why bother training for it.

How special you are made to feel by belong to an elite organization, that give out paper and plastic awards for your efforts and achievements, against other compliant opponents.

By practicing on a virtual playing field is giving and promoting a false sense of security, on a scale similar to the wizard of oz.

There is more reality in a playground fight, due to conflict for a silly reason, than there is for a trophy, that's why the karate kid movies needed to make the final fights personal and competitive at the same time, to combine the two put it in to a pespective that esculated in to a heightened drama and tension senerio; otherwise it would be a playground brawl or just another tournament fight.

If you really want to fight, then train the way you fight and fight the way you train, or as close to it as possible.

[shortyafter]

Sparring is much more like a real fight. I say this as a person who grew up fighting as a youth. A fight feels like sparring more then any setting I have seen in martial arts.

That's an interesting perspective. It makes sense to me but it's still nice to know. I have never been in a real fight, and yeah yeah honestly it'd be cool to use my karate knowledge but I know that's just asking for trouble. And well beside the point. I have only ever done one full contact spar, in my Kyokushin dojo, during a belt test. The spar lasted 30 seconds.

Me personally, I wasn't thinking about drills or even technique to be honest. The furthest thing from my mind. I see what you mean in that sense. I was having a really tough week, but I had persisted and I had survived. And somehow the stars collided and I was just in the awesome space of "I survived this week, I will survive this fight". I went into it with a totally clear head and conscious. I did very well, in fact I only later found out I had broken my opponent's rib. Wow. From that day on I understood what Funakoshi meant when he said "spirit before technique".

To be honest I don't know enough about fighting or karate to opine on what would work for me in a fight and what wouldn't. All I know is the spirit of karate is helping me to advance and meet life's challenges, and as my example above proved to me, that same spirit does aid me in combat.

Another example - yesterday I was in the supermarket and there was a real rough looking gypsy family in line behind me. A couple of big teenage guys among them, bigger than me. Now I have nothing against gypsies. But these particular ones did have a rough looking appearance, the kind of appearance that suggests they wouldn't think twice to rob or hurt you. They for whatever reason were kind of in my personal space, I didn't flinch, didn't show any fear, and calmly kept my hand on my wallet and money. The tranquility was real, and I owe it to my karate training.

Now, where do drills play into this? Not totally sure. I like to think they help me train my body, teach me how to move my hips, shift my weight, deliver power. The kind of thing that when I have that "a-ha" moment becomes sort of subconscious. And secondly, of course, they help train my spirit. Wax on, wax off.

[singularity6]

Drilling basic techniques is essential. In this light, I do see one-steps as being very important. One of the issues I have with them, however, is that if you're paired off with someone who's significantly higher in rank (I'm still only 6th geup,) you often end up getting fire hosed with information. Many times I was taught a technique by my instructor, practiced it twice, then I get to sit there and listen to a black belt spout off for several minutes about all the neat things you can do, all while forgetting what I was supposed to be practicing. (Sorry... rant over... moving on!)

We start sparring once we get a yellow belt, and we only spar with black belts in the beginning. There are no tournament rules in our school, so the training we get will most likely work on the street, if needed. They start off slow, leading us a bit. On occasion, they'll step it up and make us really work for it. Overall, I feel they do a nice job.

[Luther unleashed]

Perhaps kick boxing, Muay Thai, TKD, JKD, would be better for your development, especially JKD as it's open to what works best for the individual.

In JKD your input for the better, can change the curriculum, whereas, a style is designed to be drilled and not changed, as one style fits all like it or not; like it or leave it.

There is a deeper side to martial arts, that is not often talked about, that concerns its ineffectiveness against what is not taught.

The element of surprise, as not knowing what it is going to happen, then why bother training for it.

How special you are made to feel by belong to an elite organization, that give out paper and plastic awards for your efforts and achievements, against other compliant opponents.

By practicing on a virtual playing field is giving and promoting a false sense of security, on a scale similar to the wizard of oz.

There is more reality in a playground fight, due to conflict for a silly reason, than there is for a trophy, that's why the karate kid movies needed to make the final fights personal and competitive at the same time, to combine the two put it in to a pespective that esculated in to a heightened drama and tension senerio; otherwise it would be a playground brawl or just another tournament fight.

If you really want to fight, then train the way you fight and fight the way you train, or as close to it as possible.

And in 1993 I started in three martial arts... American Kickboxing, which prompted me to then take up taekwondo on opposite days, and when I got better my instructor offered Jeet Kune Do in which I did for about four years however I still practice it’s concept today.

I would not say it better suits me I would say that because I started in it and simply had an open mind and care very little about staying pure to an art or earning rank I’d say my path has been very true to myself and I’m very happy with it. I took what I wanted and got rid of the rest with no issues. I teach a hybrid version of Tang Soo Do, and when I mean by hybrid is that the core and foundation or structure is Tang Soo Do, but the other things are my experiences different parts and techniques throughout my whole life. It feels like you are trying to push me towards what you think would better suit me but I am perfectly content in a traditional martial art and mixing in whatever I like.

I am very open-minded as a person and it is only reflected by my choice of practice in the Arts.

[Luther unleashed]

Drilling basic techniques is essential. In this light, I do see one-steps as being very important. One of the issues I have with them, however, is that if you're paired off with someone who's significantly higher in rank (I'm still only 6th geup,) you often end up getting fire hosed with information. Many times I was taught a technique by my instructor, practiced it twice, then I get to sit there and listen to a black belt spout off for several minutes about all the neat things you can do, all while forgetting what I was supposed to be practicing. (Sorry... rant over... moving on!)

We start sparring once we get a yellow belt, and we only spar with black belts in the beginning. There are no tournament rules in our school, so the training we get will most likely work on the street, if needed. They start off slow, leading us a bit. On occasion, they'll step it up and make us really work for it. Overall, I feel they do a nice job.

I spar same way, continuous sparring and treating it more like a fight because that is what he fight is going to be like, people swinging at you. We do not teach you that you must stand a certain way and bounce a certain way, everybody spiring stance and method of attack is their own. We encourage them to take whatever they like from the techniques and use them inspiring in a fairway do not injure somebody. One does not have to be in a fight to see that is what he fight looks like, in my opinion as I stated nothing will prepare you for a fight more than sparring in the correct manner. The chances that you are going to pull off a cross and uppercut to your opponents head is far higher than attempting to arm bar them or wrist lock them are you sure you.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Luther unleashed

[Luther unleashed]

Sparring is much more like a real fight. I say this as a person who grew up fighting as a youth. A fight feels like sparring more then any setting I have seen in martial arts.

That's an interesting perspective. It makes sense to me but it's still nice to know. I have never been in a real fight, and yeah yeah honestly it'd be cool to use my karate knowledge but I know that's just asking for trouble. And well beside the point. I have only ever done one full contact spar, in my Kyokushin dojo, during a belt test. The spar lasted 30 seconds.

Me personally, I wasn't thinking about drills or even technique to be honest. The furthest thing from my mind. I see what you mean in that sense. I was having a really tough week, but I had persisted and I had survived. And somehow the stars collided and I was just in the awesome space of "I survived this week, I will survive this fight". I went into it with a totally clear head and conscious. I did very well, in fact I only later found out I had broken my opponent's rib. Wow. From that day on I understood what Funakoshi meant when he said "spirit before technique".

To be honest I don't know enough about fighting or karate to opine on what would work for me in a fight and what wouldn't. All I know is the spirit of karate is helping me to advance and meet life's challenges, and as my example above proved to me, that same spirit does aid me in combat.

Another example - yesterday I was in the supermarket and there was a real rough looking gypsy family in line behind me. A couple of big teenage guys among them, bigger than me. Now I have nothing against gypsies. But these particular ones did have a rough looking appearance, the kind of appearance that suggests they wouldn't think twice to rob or hurt you. They for whatever reason were kind of in my personal space, I didn't flinch, didn't show any fear, and calmly kept my hand on my wallet and money. The tranquility was real, and I owe it to my karate training.

Now, where do drills play into this? Not totally sure. I like to think they help me train my body, teach me how to move my hips, shift my weight, deliver power. The kind of thing that when I have that "a-ha" moment becomes sort of subconscious. And secondly, of course, they help train my spirit. Wax on, wax off.

Pretty much as I already said you have to look around and see what you see. Watch a fight or two on YouTube and watch the UFC and you will see that striking in the manner that we do in sparring ng is mostly what is out there. I practice self-defense techniques and drills so I’m not saying that I don’t practice them or find them useful but I am saying that most styles and schools place emphasis on them above sparring in a fighting stance and I just believe that is completely wrong, as a person who is been in fights and witnessed a lot of fights growing up in a rough area fights are always something that starts standing with striking almost always anyways, and in many cases it will end up in a wrestling match of some sort This would make your sparring and any groundwork a very effective method in the street, this is why in the UFC you see so many people work on striking and brown game. I’m not saying a person could not pull off some type of armlock or reversal or something but I am saying when somebody really knows what they’re doing you just don’t see that happen to them.

[sensei8]

While Luther unleashed poised to state his pointed remark...

Where the average Karate school falls short!

Then this leads me to ask...

Just what, if anything else, is "average"??

This answer, I can only surmise, from any KF member, might be wider than the skies, in which, there might not be one satisfying response.

Is being labeled "average" a good or bad thing??

And just who, what, where, when, why, and how does this give that individual and/or group the power to pass said judgement??

[Luther unleashed]

While Luther unleashed poised to state his pointed remark...

Where the average Karate school falls short!

Then this leads me to ask...

Just what, if anything else, is "average"??

This answer, I can only surmise, from any KF member, might be wider than the skies, in which, there might not be one satisfying response.

Is being labeled "average" a good or bad thing??

And just who, what, where, when, why, and how does this give that individual and/or group the power to pass said judgement??

Judgment? I’m afraid it’s a topic of discussion that I am expressing my opinion on the matter that I find interesting. By “average” I felt it was obvious but I suppose that’s because I was writing it. I mean most I have seen. The average to me means most that I see. I see them in person, on the internet, and so on. No intention of a label, just saying many schools I come across spend too much (in my opinion) time drilling with non resistant partners at half speed. Throw them in sparring with an opponents hands up swinging and give them a real paced taste of it. Thanks all!

My opinion is based on my personal experience and expertise in martial arts, just as are yours when you express them.

Our variations in training and ideas are what makes us all special. I would imagine anybody who thinks drills are essential has been doing drills for a long time, and that’s fine. I do not think they are essential, I do think that they have value and I do them because of that but I do not place the same level of importance with the same emphasis on them and that’s really my only point, just that the amount of attention drills get his more that I think is affective versus sparring. Really my other point is that even when somebody says drills are more important than I think They are, I could have that discussion although it better be a discussion about drills with resistance at a high rate of speed from the attacker in order to even be a conversation of effectiveness for combat, because the “average” (meaning most) schools do NOT drill like reality and create an environment that is conducive to a fighting environment.

[MatsuShinshii]

I find that often many Karate styles and dojo’s Fall short in effectively teaching fighting. Too many tines I see students spend hours upon hours drilling self’s defense moves. I watch their opponent repeated and endlessly drive a slow moving punch forward, while the defender performs a set of techniques. It’s not a problem to start slow but what gets to me is even after years and black belt levels are earned, many practitioners who are defending against an attack me move very quickly, however the defender is never coming at a fast pace and is always very telegraphed to ensure a good outcome.

This in particular is why I am not actually a fan of things like one step sparring and self-defense. I personally believe that the biggest form of self defense happens in free sparring, most often karate I see spiring used as a sport version or additive to what they do. For me and my experience sparring was treated more like a fight. In karate it is common to see everybody moving the same exact way as they are taught to stand, and move, and strike identically. Of course with this happening it does not bring about a real mess of a fight because every single street opponent will move differently. When I teach spiring everybody may use the techniques they learn from class on their own, and although they are taught way to stand in the end they are aspiring stance is their own in the ways they move specifically are their own. Inspiring having an opponents coming at you is much more like a fight and nothing will feel closer to a fight in this. No matter how many self-defense moves we do there always seems to be a lack of true 100% resistance and consistently telegraphed slower movements where as inspiring it may be controlled because we don’t want to harm our opponent but in fact we aim to achieve very fast effective techniques that land.

I believe Karate’s weakness in many cases is the lack of treating sparring more like fighting, because as I stated, performing self-defense techniques with a partner is typically way to controlled.

Tell me what you guys think, I always welcome your opinions.

I agree with you in that all too often schools will err on the side of caution and keep things slow so that no one gets hurt.

Fighting is unpredictable and I can see why you do not agree with the way some train.

Having said that I can only comment based on my training and experience and will allow others to comment for Karate as a whole. In the beginning phases we show the students how to defend against a set attack. Basically offender punches and the defender moves/deflects and counters. This is done at a slow speed so that the student can learn the technique/application and start to build muscle memory. However this is not a stagnant thing. This training should transition into training against a resistive opponent. Meaning that they no longer throw the strike slow or at the same height or angle. This then progresses into more of a free form of practice where as the opponent might throw any number of combinations until the student stops the attack by effecting a viable strike/throw/submission/etc. that ends the fight. This is done at full speed.

The concept is building upon their knowledge. They start learning a few techniques and applications and these are built upon. The training should go from compliant to resistive so that the student can assess it's effectiveness and suitability to them. This can only be done through pressure testing against a non-compliant opponent.

Each application and technique is done in this fashion and is built upon until the student has an endless amount of techniques and applications to draw upon.

The problem I have with sparring (Kumite) in most modern schools is everything the student is taught goes right out the window the minute they step on the floor. I also find issue with modern practice of kumite in that it is applied as a long distance method of fighting. This is not practical as 99.99% of fights are close quarters.

You should practice as you will fight in a real conflict. If you do not, muscle memory will revert the student back to the way they fight in class and this never ends well.

The training should be real in that how you practice will be how you will fight in a real confrontation.