What was training under the founders really like?

[bushido_man96]

MatsuShinshii, your description of applications sound a lot like some I've read in a Kane and Wilder book. Good stuff.

[MatsuShinshii]

MatsuShinshii, your description of applications sound a lot like some I've read in a Kane and Wilder book. Good stuff.

Not to sound ignorant but what is a Kane and wilder book?

[Wastelander]

MatsuShinshii, your description of applications sound a lot like some I've read in a Kane and Wilder book. Good stuff.

Not to sound ignorant but what is a Kane and wilder book?

Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder, who practice and teach Goju-Ryu, and both have a good deal of experience doing security work of various types, wrote a book called "The Way of Kata," which goes over some fundamental concepts for bunkai.

[MatsuShinshii]

MatsuShinshii, your description of applications sound a lot like some I've read in a Kane and Wilder book. Good stuff.

Not to sound ignorant but what is a Kane and wilder book?

Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder, who practice and teach Goju-Ryu, and both have a good deal of experience doing security work of various types, wrote a book called "The Way of Kata," which goes over some fundamental concepts for bunkai.

Thanks. I'll look it up.

[JR 137]

I’m still reading this and learning. I especially liked MatsuShinshii’s post on the various points of bunkai. Please expand on it, MatsuShinshii; I’m definitely on bored yet!

[MatsuShinshii]

This was just a bit of information for those looking at applications online or creating practical applications themselves. If you are learning what I call the founders applications then these are present throughout and you already know this.

The first video is what I would call literal applications. Punch/block/kick. This is the literal interpretation of the Kata. There is nothing wrong with this in the sense that it teaches you to shift from one stance to the next and builds muscle memory. However they take the Kata literally in that there response to attacks is dictated by the Kata itself. The Kata tells you to move here, execute a block and counter. This does fit into the percussive impact element of the applications so this can be considered viable as long as one is targeting the vital and weak targets of the opponent. If it does not have the potential to end the conflict it's not viable.

An example would be Jodan Uke (upper block). You see this in almost every Mudansha Kata. If you think this is logical then practice it as a block. IMHO and based on my experience and training this is not a block.

The typical sequence is upper block, transition to a forward leaning stance with a reverse punch. If this is taken literally the question still stands how are you blocking and then stepping forward into an opponent that is already in motion moving towards you. This is one of the problems with literal applications as I would call them.

A body in motion is hard to stop and has the advantage. If the opponent is in forward motion with the first punch (lets say to your face since it's an upper block) then the second punch is almost effortless as he is already in motion. Conversely you are blocking straight up so your power is focused up and your momentum is generated up instead of forward. This means that your second response takes a split second to execute because you are changing your momentum's direction. The opponent has the advantage.

If you take it one step further, how are you to step in to an opponent moving towards you? Further more, at least in the Okinawan arts you do not meet full force with force but redirect it or step out of the path. This example found within many Kata does not make logical sense. This is because it's not a block.

This (upper block) is a strike or as a throw. I will give two examples so you can understand;

1. Your step forward and raise your (upper block) up into the opponents chin or rake up their esophagus to the chin using the forearm or the fist (I prefer the forearm because you have a greater chance of connecting with your target because of the surface area of the weapon). The opponent is rocked backwards and then you can move forwards with your reverse punch because his body no longer takes up that space as in the literal example.

2. I know most no longer teach this strike but we still do. The opponent strikes and you move to the outside of the strike and brush and grab his arm/sleeve. This is then retracted (Hikite or pulling arm) to the chamber and the (upper block) arm is brought around to the back of the opponents head (at the base of the skull) and the thumb knuckle is used as the striking weapon. The chambered hand releases the opponents arm and while stepping forward it executes a strike to the opponent (temple, jaw, bridge or the nose, neck if they have lifted their head, etc.).

Believe it or not both methods are practiced or at least used to be practiced while performing the Kata. The Japanese did away with the second example all together for some reason and is rarely seen in the majority of modern Karate schools.

The second video was a better representation of practical applications IMHO but then again I have never studied that style of Karate so it may actually be a representation of their founders applications. Is does include throws and strikes but it appeared to me as more of a drill. But again I have no actual knowledge of the art so I am only basing this on opinion and not actual fact.

I can comment to a small degree on the first because I studied Matsubayashi Ryu for time as a teenager. I can say I was never taught applications and have never seen that exercise (what I would call literal applications) before.

This is not to degrade or pass judgement on either arts or their training methods. Most arts do not publicize their applications so it would be very unfair of me or anyone else to judge those methods. For instance the first video may have been taken out of context and labelled incorrectly by a student and posted as applications (Bunkai). For all I know it may have been a drill to teach the student how to transition while blocking and countering.

I can only speak as to my person experience in that we break down the classifications of applications into the original founders applications and what is know as practical applications. I use the term literal applications to describe the teaching of what I would call face value techniques. I would also include non-viable applications into this mix. By this I mean applications that are not efficient (way to many moves to execute the final blow, takes too much time to end the fight), and applications that do not have the potential to end the fight. Some might call these phony but I would disagree with this assessment. I would call them uninformed. They are not fake they just are not effective.

There might be another category to describe applications that don't even resemble the posture (step) in the Kata. These are where I believe instructors in their need to provide meaning have taken techniques and applications from other arts and have inserted them as a representation of that posture (step) in a given Kata. It doesn't mean that they are not effective or do not have the potential to end the fight it just means that it did not come from that Kata/ art.

All to often the Kata is taken literally but no one starts a fight looking away from their opponent. I just gave away another "secret". Not really but applications are viewed as hidden, secret or advanced. IMHO they are none of these and should be taught as the Kata is taught. Meaning from Hachikyu (or what ever your first grade is) on. Without this knowledge the student makes comments like "why should I learn this, it doesn't help me to fight". It's nothing more than a dance without the applications to give it meaning. Well maybe I shouldn't say that as it does teach one to move and transition from one stance to another.

Oh and that is another good point... stances are the most misunderstood part of training. I have heard students in other arts say "why should I learn these, I wouldn't use this in a fight". The stance teaches the student the optimum body position to produce optimum power. If the student is taught how to generate power through their body from the floor to the weapon in the proper stance maximum power can be generated. Fights are ugly and you will find yourself in all sorts of positions but this goes back to muscle memory and teaching the body proper alignment. Even if your not in a perfect natural stance (you might be a tad twisted, etc.) by practicing the stances and transitioning from stance to stance within the Kata the practitioner has a better balance and can still generate enough power to effect a damaging blow. All arts have their stances including boxing, wrestling, etc. The reason they are taught is to teach the body and develop muscle memory so that the body naturally transitions without thought. Some might disagree but this is my opinion.

Another note, No fight happens that way a Kata is structured.

Based on my research and what I have always been taught the Kata is merely a manual, if you will, that contains the applications. How the founder, or maybe I should say the arts that influenced the founder, developed or interpreted the applications actually is what makes each art unique or at least used to. Oh and if there is any secret about applications this would be it... it makes the art what it is or what it was meant to be before it was japanized. The Kata is basically like a collection of all of the techniques and applications for that art. It is hard to see or imagine some times but if you think about each posture as a picture (just one) that represents a total application (could be two or more that represent the application as well) that was meant to remind the practitioner, without writing down or showing each step, what it represents. This is primarily why most do not know what the Kata and it's steps represent because the meaning has been lost or discarded or was not passed down. Thus you get words like secret, hidden or too dangerous to teach to humans. Bogus!

These applications can however be rediscovered through study of the arts that influenced your art. In the case of Okinawan Karate and even Japanese Karate (as long as they are still using the original Kata) you can do a little research or even ask your Sensei what these arts were and then look at the Hsing and it's applications to get an idea. In my case I actually discovered that there where small discrepancies between what I was told was the original application and what I found. This mattered little as they were both proof tested and viable so really in the end I added to my tool box of applications. SWEET!

I have no problem going into detail for a given Kata (providing that we actually study the Kata in question) but each art practices the same Kata slightly differently and what might be our founders applications might not be yours. Each student should be taught their arts applications but if not there are ways (legitimate ways) to find out the intent on their own or you can create your own practical applications. However a strong word of caution - what you see on the internet and on Youtube is subjective (I'm being nice) and there are MANY that do not fit within what characterizes a real application.

Just remember to ask yourself if it's effective and has the potential to end the fight. If it doesn't then don't waste another minute with it. Proof test every application against a resistive non-compliant opponent.

[MatsuShinshii]

I’m still reading this and learning. I especially liked MatsuShinshii’s post on the various points of bunkai. Please expand on it, MatsuShinshii; I’m definitely on bored yet!

Ok a few more...

6. There is no set direction. Niahanchi has many examples of this and so does Chinto's beginning. Chinto (some perform it this way) start with a 45 degree turn. This is not logical as no one starts a fight facing 45 degree's away from their opponent. There are so many examples of this that it would not be for a post but rather a book. However I think this serves to make the point.

7. There is no set height or angle. Most modern dojo's harp on exact height and angle of a technique within the Kata. This is great if you always fight an opponent that always attacks the same way (directly in front of you) and is the exact height as you are. This is ludicrous and ridiculous. This and most of these examples is why so many have trouble understanding or envisioning the meaning of a posture (step) within the Kata. Hitting an opponent in the brachial plexus is a lot different than hitting them in the shoulder. If the opponent is taller you have no choice but to adjust which is why exact heights in Kata IMHO is ludicrous. What you do in practice IS what you will do in a real fight. Muscle Memory!

8. Just because the Kata is taught a specific way does not mean that this was what was passed down from the founder. A perfect example is blocks. I won't get into the reasons why the intent or practice of certain techniques were changed as I was not there and do not have first hand knowledge of the reasons but one only has to look at the arts that influenced the founders art to realize that changes where made and I would say in a detrimental way. Keep this in mind when trying to analyze a posture (step) within the Kata as to its' real meaning.

9. The postures within the Kata, although in that Kata does not mean that they necessarily belong with other postures within that Kata or that they don't. One has to remember that the Kata was created to contain INDIVIDUAL applications. That means that an application from one Kata might be more effective executed with an application from a different Kata. Don't get locked in to literal translation or you miss the beauty of what the founders left us with. The applications are limitless.

An example of this is the (what most call a U-punch or Mountain punch) contained within Matsumura Rohai and the (what most call a lantern stance) contained within Jitte.

The "U-punch" is you reaching in and grabbing the opponent by the back of the head (hair, neck, or any other weak area) and the other hand passes past the groin to the lower back/belt. The opponent is then picked up (what some would call a fireman's carry) and then transitioned so that the arm holding the lower back/belt is above the head and that other arm (holding the head/hair/etc. is thrown down so that the opponent is effectively dumped/thrown down on the top of his head. This is not to say that this is the only applications contributed to these postures because it's not. I am just trying to give an example of how one posture from this Kata can be effective with another posture from a totally different Kata.

There are too many examples to list here of practical applications. Iain Abernathy does a fine job of showing you what the postures could and in some cases do represent. You can watch a few of his Youtube vids and see examples. Actually I came upon our own Wastelander's video's when viewing one of my students video's and he has very good example of both practical and what I believe are founders applications. I have given you some of our practical and founders applications as additional examples in this and in my other posts to give a bit of clarity and not to copy others practical applications. I hope this has been at least somewhat insightful.

Hopefully this will energize you and others to do your own research.

The most important thing about practical applications is that it opens the mind to new possibilities, forces analytical thinking and gives the student more tools to draw from. IMHO it is what makes the art what it is along with the Kata's themselves.

If I had the time and the energy I could go on for months about this topic because I feel that it's that important to the study of the art.

If you have further questions I'll do my best to answer them. Keep in mind, when it comes to the founders applications, ours may not match yours. It is best to ask your Sensei or his Sensei so that you learn your arts techniques and applications. If they do not know, as I said, a little research into the arts that influenced yours is a good start and an eye opener. Good luck!

[sensei8]

As the title of this thread asks pointedly...

What was training under the founders really like?

I, of course, can't speak intelligently with any authority when it comes to the very well known MA founders found passionately through the extremely rich and long history that is of the MA. From afar, through MA history books and the like, we are blessed to receive a glimpse into what it must've been like under these well founded Masters on their floors.

Yet, with authority, I can proudly speak with just that one word that capitulates what it was for me to train under the founder of Shindokan Saitou-ryu, Fuyuhiko Saitou, Soke, Judan, the MA that I've been fortunate enough to train in these past 53 years...

EXHILARATING!!

[Prototype]

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnaf665v9mU

[Lupin1]

My instructor learned karate from several former military men who studied Isshinryu on Okinawa at the Agena dojo-- one under the founder of Isshinryu and the other under his son.

According to them, it was all very informal. There were few formal classes. Students came in when they were free. Military men worked odd hours, and could come train whenever-- even in the middle of the night. New students would be taught basic exercises and kata by more experienced students. You'd come in and just train individually on whatever you wanted. If you were doing well, someone would teach you something new. If you wanted to spar or work applications, you'd just find someone and ask them to work with you.

Shimabuku, the founder of Isshinryu, didn't teach formal classes or train alongside the students. Mostly he would just watch. If he saw you were working hard, he might offer you a correction or teach you something new. But the majority of the teaching was done by his black belts and they worked with newer students individually.

You'd come in when you were free, stay a few hours working on whatever you wanted, then leave when you wanted. It was all very informal and individualistic.