What was training under the founders really like?

[JR 137]

Just as different instructors do things differently today, different "founders" did things differently back then, too. Was kata a huge part, historically? Yes! The thing I feel the need to point out is that the 3K division (Kihon/Kata/Kumite) was not a standard practice back then, and certainly nowhere near as popular as it is, today. Many instructors considered kumite to simply be part of kata training, because the kumite came from the kata. Kihon was similar. Some instructors chose to heavily focus on physical development before ever getting to the fighting methods, which is what you have essentially described with Miyagi. Others did not, although you will often see statements about having to study certain kata for a long time before learning anything else--as I mentioned, though, that kata study INCLUDES application and kumite, rather than being separate from it. Each instructor had their own reasons for doing things the way they did. Some focused heavily on physical development. Some focused heavily on the practice of solo kata with no application. Some focused heavily on kumite of various types. Etc.

Solid post. Thank you.

[Wastelander]

One thing that’s always made me scratch my head is Mas Oyama not teaching bunkai.

Oyama studied under Gichin Funakoshi and his son. Studied under Gogen Yamaguchi and another direct student of Miyagi (Nei-Chu So). Any or all of these men surely would’ve taught Oyama bunkai, and quality bunkai. Yet there are zero accounts of Oyama teaching his students bunkai beyond block/punch/kick.

My only criticism of Seido is we don’t do very much formal bunkai. We have set “self defenses” that if you analyze them actually correspond to kata movements, but I feel like it’s more coincidental than intentional to be honest. Nakamura is a direct student of Oyama, and when he formed Seido, he developed the “self defenses” we practice. I love Seido, but I just wish we spent some time doing bunkai.

But Oyama not passing bunkai on really boggles my mind.

Some instructors did not teach the applications and others would not teach them until a student was awarded Yudansha.

This was for a multitude of reasons, for which I've heard plenty. We teach along with the kata. Hachikyu start learning Pinan Shodan, and immediately learn the applications and are taught two person drills so they can apply what they've learned.

To each their own. I feel that teaching the applications while learning the Kata gives the student a deeper understanding.

Just for the sake of information...

Oyama was reportedly nanadan (or possibly hachidan) under Gogen Yamaguchi when he left to start the Oyama dojo. I highly doubt Yamaguchi would bestow that rank on anyone who didn’t have a through understanding of bunkai and how to teach it. Why he abandoned bunkai really makes me wonder. Oyama had hundreds, if not thousands of high ranking yudansha under him at the time of his death. Yet there’s not a single report of him teaching bunkai that I’ve seen nor heard of.

Everyone’s got their own philosophies and methods.

For what it's worth, some people simply don't care about bunkai/oyo. Oyama liked his kumite approach, and perhaps enjoyed the practice of kata for health and personal development, but didn't care about how the movements were supposed to be applied. The modifications he made to the kata certainly seem to suggest that, since the motions no longer fit Okinawan methods. It's also possible that Yamaguchi didn't care that much about the application, and didn't teach much of it. It's also possible that Yamaguchi didn't learn much application in his time with Yagi and Miyagi, and therefore didn't teach much of it. There is a whole chain of possibilities, but I doubt we will get a definitive answer. Even within my organization, you can ask the head of the organization what the application for a move is, and he will show you a practical self defense technique, and you can ask one of his Okinawan 9th dans and get a basic block, or some such thing.

[MatsuShinshii]

As I stated there are many reason for and for not teaching applications. The overwhelming reason today is that the vast majority of instructors have not been taught them so they can not pass them down. Is this due to their instructors not knowing them or is it because they chose to not teach them? No one will ever know.

[shortyafter]

Just for the sake of information...

Oyama was reportedly nanadan (or possibly hachidan) under Gogen Yamaguchi when he left to start the Oyama dojo. I highly doubt Yamaguchi would bestow that rank on anyone who didn’t have a through understanding of bunkai and how to teach it. Why he abandoned bunkai really makes me wonder. Oyama had hundreds, if not thousands of high ranking yudansha under him at the time of his death. Yet there’s not a single report of him teaching bunkai that I’ve seen nor heard of.

Everyone’s got their own philosophies and methods.

I'm curious about this -- it is common knowledge that Oyama did not train bunkai? Or where did you get this information from? My Kyokushin instructor trained under Oyama for about a year in Japan and he has always emphasized bunkai, we do it in nearly every class. I wonder if my instructor's version is a modern adaptation of Kyokushin, or maybe just something he personally likes doing. Would be curious to have any more info on this.

[JR 137]

Just for the sake of information...

Oyama was reportedly nanadan (or possibly hachidan) under Gogen Yamaguchi when he left to start the Oyama dojo. I highly doubt Yamaguchi would bestow that rank on anyone who didn’t have a through understanding of bunkai and how to teach it. Why he abandoned bunkai really makes me wonder. Oyama had hundreds, if not thousands of high ranking yudansha under him at the time of his death. Yet there’s not a single report of him teaching bunkai that I’ve seen nor heard of.

Everyone’s got their own philosophies and methods.

I'm curious about this -- it is common knowledge that Oyama did not train bunkai? Or where did you get this information from? My Kyokushin instructor trained under Oyama for about a year in Japan and he has always emphasized bunkai, we do it in nearly every class. I wonder if my instructor's version is a modern adaptation of Kyokushin, or maybe just something he personally likes doing. Would be curious to have any more info on this.

I’d say it’s common knowledge that Oyama didn’t TEACH bunkai beyond “block a front kick, step forward and punch him in the stomach” (taikyoku 1). There was a thread about bunkai and Oyama not teaching it on the now defunct Kyokushin4Life forum. Many there were high ranking Kyokushin guys and they all stated they’ve looked for evidence of him teaching it to no avail. I haven’t seen any mention of bunkai beyond very superficial stuff from any Kyokushin resource. And I’ve looked quite a bit.

If he learned it and trained it during his pre-Oyama dojo days is another debate. I’d bet he did, being a student of the teachers he had, but that doesn’t guarantee anything.

More and more Kyokushin teachers are teaching deeper bunkai than previous generations. Perhaps due to the internet, seminars, more readily available resources, etc. I’m not saying the bunkai you’re learning can’t be Oyama’s bunkai, but it’s highly doubtful IMO. That doesn’t automatically make it incorrect nor correct, it just is what it is.

All IMO.

Edit: I missed the part where you said your teacher trained under Oyama in Japan. ASK HIM!!! I’d love to hear anything about Oyama teaching it from someone who was there! All I’ve heard is “he didn’t teach me nor anyone else I’ve asked that trained under him.” That includes students who’s teachers were Oyama’s students way back in the early days. And keep bunkai in perspective. I’m not talking block-punch-kick, I’m talking Okinawan bunkai type stuff.

[shortyafter]

JR - unfortunately I only train at this dojo during the summers because I live overseas most of the year. At the moment it's difficult to get in touch with him about this kind of thing. I will keep it in mind for the future.

Forgive me but I don't know much about Okinawa bunkai. Maybe what my instructor calls "bunkai" is actually something different. We do something called "1-step kumite" and "3-step kumite" which is basically just application of the 4 principal blocks, the attack being a jodan oi-tsuki or chudan. The thing that is specifically labelled bunkai is called "Pinan Bunkai". In this exercise we do various applications of the Pinan/Heian kata.

Pinan Bunkai #3, for example, has the attacker doing chudan oi-tsuki. The defender turns to the side and blocks with the shoulder, and follows up with uraken (this is application for pinan sono san). #2, for example, is miya-geri followed by chudan oi-tsuki. Defender blocks the kick with a low block, reroutes the punch off to the side with the other hand, and then clobbers to the jaw with an outside to inside middle block. This is application for pinan soni ichi (the third and fourth motions). And there are about 8 of them like this that I know of. All of this is done by the count, and then done by your own count. I think we have done bunkai for other sets of kata, in the same fashion, though not as commonly.

I'm not sure if this falls under the category of Okinawan bunkai or more of a a "punch, block, punch" Oyama style. Let me know.

[Wastelander]

JR - unfortunately I only train at this dojo during the summers because I live overseas most of the year. At the moment it's difficult to get in touch with him about this kind of thing. I will keep it in mind for the future.

Forgive me but I don't know much about Okinawa bunkai. Maybe what my instructor calls "bunkai" is actually something different. We do something called "1-step kumite" and "3-step kumite" which is basically just application of the 4 principal blocks, the attack being a jodan oi-tsuki or chudan. The thing that is specifically labelled bunkai is called "Pinan Bunkai". In this exercise we do various applications of the Pinan/Heian kata.

Pinan Bunkai #3, for example, has the attacker doing chudan oi-tsuki. The defender turns to the side and blocks with the shoulder, and follows up with uraken (this is application for pinan sono san). #2, for example, is miya-geri followed by chudan oi-tsuki. Defender blocks the kick with a low block, reroutes the punch off to the side with the other hand, and then clobbers to the jaw with an outside to inside middle block. This is application for pinan soni ichi (the third and fourth motions). And there are about 8 of them like this that I know of. All of this is done by the count, and then done by your own count. I think we have done bunkai for other sets of kata, in the same fashion, though not as commonly.

I'm not sure if this falls under the category of Okinawan bunkai or more of a a "punch, block, punch" Oyama style. Let me know.

That would be the "block/punch/kick" type of application, yes. Old-style Okinawan arts commonly use the elbow movement you use to block to apply an armbar, as a comparison.

[JR 137]

JR - unfortunately I only train at this dojo during the summers because I live overseas most of the year. At the moment it's difficult to get in touch with him about this kind of thing. I will keep it in mind for the future.

Forgive me but I don't know much about Okinawa bunkai. Maybe what my instructor calls "bunkai" is actually something different. We do something called "1-step kumite" and "3-step kumite" which is basically just application of the 4 principal blocks, the attack being a jodan oi-tsuki or chudan. The thing that is specifically labelled bunkai is called "Pinan Bunkai". In this exercise we do various applications of the Pinan/Heian kata.

Pinan Bunkai #3, for example, has the attacker doing chudan oi-tsuki. The defender turns to the side and blocks with the shoulder, and follows up with uraken (this is application for pinan sono san). #2, for example, is miya-geri followed by chudan oi-tsuki. Defender blocks the kick with a low block, reroutes the punch off to the side with the other hand, and then clobbers to the jaw with an outside to inside middle block. This is application for pinan soni ichi (the third and fourth motions). And there are about 8 of them like this that I know of. All of this is done by the count, and then done by your own count. I think we have done bunkai for other sets of kata, in the same fashion, though not as commonly.

I'm not sure if this falls under the category of Okinawan bunkai or more of a a "punch, block, punch" Oyama style. Let me know.

I wouldn’t call this deep bunkai...

I’d call this deep bunkai. Especially in about the middle. Perhaps I should use “deep” instead of “Okinawan”...

[shortyafter]

Hey guys, I'm still not totally clear on the difference but that does make a bit more sense. Sounds like what we do in class is more of an Oyama style. Interesting to know. Thanks.

[MatsuShinshii]

JR - unfortunately I only train at this dojo during the summers because I live overseas most of the year. At the moment it's difficult to get in touch with him about this kind of thing. I will keep it in mind for the future.

Forgive me but I don't know much about Okinawa bunkai. Maybe what my instructor calls "bunkai" is actually something different. We do something called "1-step kumite" and "3-step kumite" which is basically just application of the 4 principal blocks, the attack being a jodan oi-tsuki or chudan. The thing that is specifically labelled bunkai is called "Pinan Bunkai". In this exercise we do various applications of the Pinan/Heian kata.

Pinan Bunkai #3, for example, has the attacker doing chudan oi-tsuki. The defender turns to the side and blocks with the shoulder, and follows up with uraken (this is application for pinan sono san). #2, for example, is miya-geri followed by chudan oi-tsuki. Defender blocks the kick with a low block, reroutes the punch off to the side with the other hand, and then clobbers to the jaw with an outside to inside middle block. This is application for pinan soni ichi (the third and fourth motions). And there are about 8 of them like this that I know of. All of this is done by the count, and then done by your own count. I think we have done bunkai for other sets of kata, in the same fashion, though not as commonly.

I'm not sure if this falls under the category of Okinawan bunkai or more of a a "punch, block, punch" Oyama style. Let me know.

I wouldn’t call this deep bunkai...

I’d call this deep bunkai. Especially in about the middle. Perhaps I should use “deep” instead of “Okinawan”...

I will not comment as to whether these examples are of actual applications but let you decide on what I considers viable applications (Bunkai) for yourself.

There are two main criteria that we use to describe viable applications. 1. Must have the potential to end the fight and 2. Must be efficient.

Essentially if the application does not have the potential to end the fight then it is not viable. If the application is not efficient, meaning that it takes minimum effort and time to end the conflict, then it is not viable.

In studying the Kata's applications you will find at least 4 categories that they will fit into.

1. Percussive Impact - this is the most popular category because its easy to see and or follow. This includes strikes, kicks, blocks (not really as these are strikes and or throws). However without the next category this category will not meet the two main criteria.

2. Chibudi (Kyusho or Dim Mak) - This is the targeting of weak area's of the body such as the eyes, neck, groin, the joints, etc. Targeting of the vitals and cavities such as nerve centers and branches, veins and arteries, ligaments and tendons.

3. Muto (Tegumi and Jiao Di) - Throws, sweeps, takedowns and off balancing techniques.

4. Tuite (Qin Na) - Submissions, locks, traps, chocks and grappling techniques.

There is one (two if you ask others) more but this makes the point.

Characteristics of Applications (Bunkai)

1. every movement within the Kata has meaning. Basically no movement/posture is just a transition or put in to get you from one move to the next. And thus no movement is to be ignored as useless unless proven to be by the individual. (not all things work for all people)

2. Each posture is a snap shot of the total application. Simply put the Chinese and Okinawan's used the Kata as a training manual and each and every posture represented an application or multiple applications.

Think of the postures as one picture that was taken as the total application was being demonstrated. Its a representation of the application. A reminder to the practitioners that have been taught them.

3. The Kata was put together in such a way as to allow the practitioner to move from one posture to the next in order to teach body mechanics and body shifting (what the Japanese call Tai Sabaki). It was created to house the postures that make up the curriculum of the art and is not necessarily a representation of the true applications.

Explanation - just because it looks like a block doesn't mean it's a block. A strike doesn't always mean it's a strike and a kick doesn't always mean that it's a kick. The Kata was created to teach the applications and to keep a record of them. Not the other way around. The applications are the key component to learning how to fight thru the Kata.

4. Closed fists can represent a strike but they also can represent a grab. They can also represent a pull as in Hikite. This is a basic explanation and thus does not encompass all meanings but gives a basic understanding.

5. Open hands can represent a strike, brush, sweep or trap but can also represent a push. This is a basic explanation and thus does not encompass all meanings but gives a basic understanding.

There are many more but I will not bore you with them as I feel this gives at least a foundation for understanding.