What was training under the founders really like?

[JR 137]

With all the (excellent) talk of kata lately, so many people have so many different ideas of what training was actually like in the days of Miyagi, Funakoshi, etc. People imply it was all kata from day, and not much else for quite some time. I’ve heard people say students would be taught a kata and work on it for years before learning another one.

I found a great interview with Meitoku Yagi a while back. Yagi was one of Chojun Miyagi’s (founder of Goju Ryu) students. He offers some insight on how the training was conducted back then...

http://www.hgweb.nl/isshinryu/history/yagi.htm

Excerpts I find quite interesting (I deleted some stuff in each one to simplify)...

Yagi: We did many, many repetitions of yobi undo drills, that's why Miyagi had so few regular students. (Yobi undo drills are basic conditioning exercises that can be extremely demanding). Each student would count for 100 repetitions of a single drill. Sometimes everyone would have to count for 1,000 repetitions. After a year or two most students would leave because there was easier training elsewhere.

Yagi: Sanchin training. Yes, in the early days many students came to Master Miyagi to train. He would train them very hard for three to five years before he taught the kata sanchin. Many of the students left before they even learned sanchin but if they stayed he then began to teach them kata sanchin. He would only teach them kata sanchin and this went on for two or three years. It was hard training. Many students left and went looking for another dojo.

Yagi: In the old days Master Miyagi often taught in two ways. One, the beginners way, was with no understanding of what they were learning. And last, for the advanced student, was a complete understanding of what they had learned. He would very rarely give insights or meaning to the kata that he taught until the student showed mastery of the form through hard and consistent training.

Yagi: When Chojun Miyagi taught karate he taught all students the beginners way. He had very few advanced students but many came and learned the beginners way. After a period of time, these students left but only with the beginners way of doing things. It is my responsibility as senior to teach the advanced way to the world. This is my future and my intention. Goju-ryu is now world wide. These methods must then be passed on world wide.

Yagi: Miyagi never awarded anyone a black belt. He was in the process of formulating requirements for the black belt but he died before he completed this.

What I gather from this is Miyagi didn’t teach kata until the student was there for a few years. Before kata was taught, the student was taught basics, strength and agility training, and body conditioning. After the student reached a level of proficiency, then they were taught their first kata - Sanchin. And they weren’t taught application of the kata for quite some time.

From what I’ve read in that article and elsewhere, Yagi was the only student taught all of the Goju Ryu kata from Miyagi. Advanced students learned some of them, but not all of them. It probably wasn’t until after Miyagi’s death that the other seniors learnt the rest of the Goju Ryu kata.

From other articles/sources, Miyagi taught the same kata differently to different students. He altered kata according to individuals’ strengths and weaknesses. He also developed some of the kata himself and/or assisted his teacher (Kanryo Higashionna) in developing some of them. By developing some of them himself, they probably went through some changes along the way. This could explain the variations in different Goju schools, as the head of each school’s lineage may have learned them at different times.

This seems in stark contrast to how we’re taught today.

Any opinions? Anything I’m missing?

If you have similar articles about other founders or people from Miyagi’s generation, please post them. I’m on a history kick lately. How do you think Miyagi would feel if he walked into a Goju school today?

[MatsuShinshii]

What was passed down to me through instructors and what I have researched is somewhat similar.

Years of training in one Kata before being allowed to learn the next. Endless drills both singular and partner for years on the applications of the Kata. A greater emphasis was put on conditioning and the way you condition as opposed to today's training methods.

A typical class was 2 to 4 hours and was everyday instead of 1.5 to 2 hrs 2 to 3 days a week.

They did not utilize what is referred to as Kihon then. Instead they utilized partner drills. The emphasis was Kata and the applications of the Kata and conditioning. What is referred to as Kihon was what the student did independent of class time.

Imagine that... students training outside of class. [sarcasm] Couldn't help myself.

[singularity6]

Historically speaking, I think people have always wanted faster results. It's really easy to look upon a master of any skill and say "hey, s/he makes that look really easy!" We then promptly get discouraged when we find out what it really takes!

[JR 137]

What was passed down to me through instructors and what I have researched is somewhat similar.

Years of training in one Kata before being allowed to learn the next. Endless drills both singular and partner for years on the applications of the Kata. A greater emphasis was put on conditioning and the way you condition as opposed to today's training methods.

A typical class was 2 to 4 hours and was everyday instead of 1.5 to 2 hrs 2 to 3 days a week.

They did not utilize what is referred to as Kihon then. Instead they utilized partner drills. The emphasis was Kata and the applications of the Kata and conditioning. What is referred to as Kihon was what the student did independent of class time.

Imagine that... students training outside of class. [sarcasm] Couldn't help myself.

How much time is left to train outside of class when 2-4 hours are spent training in class everyday. Add work and other responsibilities to the mix. But I agree with your point.

When were you taught your first kata? Was it pretty much immediately, or was it after you had been there for some time?

[JR 137]

One thing that’s always made me scratch my head is Mas Oyama not teaching bunkai.

Oyama studied under Gichin Funakoshi and his son. Studied under Gogen Yamaguchi and another direct student of Miyagi (Nei-Chu So). Any or all of these men surely would’ve taught Oyama bunkai, and quality bunkai. Yet there are zero accounts of Oyama teaching his students bunkai beyond block/punch/kick.

My only criticism of Seido is we don’t do very much formal bunkai. We have set “self defenses” that if you analyze them actually correspond to kata movements, but I feel like it’s more coincidental than intentional to be honest. Nakamura is a direct student of Oyama, and when he formed Seido, he developed the “self defenses” we practice. I love Seido, but I just wish we spent some time doing bunkai.

But Oyama not passing bunkai on really boggles my mind.

[sensei8]

Very solid OP, JR, very solid!!

Here's where I might offer different contrasts to what others have and/or are experiencing across the board.

Shindokan Saitou-ryu's founder, Soke Fuyuhiko Saitou, right from Shindokan's inception, Soke didn't want to follow the status quo of many other Okinawan Karate founders!! How the other founders taught, drilled, trained, walked, talked, moved, stood, and whatever else might have been the acceptable methodologies and ideologies of those times, was their thing, and not Soke's.

Soke had wanted nothing from them whatsoever!! Soke refused to join them!! Soke declined every invitation to join their Governing Body, if they had one!! Soke was ostracized to the Nth degree because of this. Soke cared less of their opinions. So much so, that he left Okinawa, and relocated in the USA, namely in southern California.

Soke had one student, Yoshinobu Takahashi, and had no interest in teaching anyone else. But time does soften a hardened heart.

Classes with Soke and Dai-Soke were a test of patience on both sides of the fences; Sensei and Student. Both Soke and Dai-Soke were emphatic taskmasters, and offered no apologize at all.

Classes were long, and you were drenched in sweat by the end of class, each class, no matter age or rank. Classes were monitored by age as far as the length were concerned...Kid classes were usually 1 hour...Adults were usually 2 hours...Black belts, including JBB, were no less than 3 hours...Godan and above were no less than 4 hours. As a Hachidan, I've been under Soke and/or Dai-Soke for 6 hours. 6 days a week!! However, the Hombu was open 6 days a week, and students had to attend no less than 3 classes a week. Black belt were required to attend no less than 4 classes a week, and Godan and above, had to attend 5 classes a week, but only if they were In-House Black Belts.

Kata's were taught to us within the given rank. What I mean by this is each rank has Kata(s), and we weren't taught that Kata(s) until we were thoroughly vested in Kihon, at Soke and Dai-Soke discretion, not anytime sooner.

We students were run the gambit...A to Z...Z to A...and then some.

[MatsuShinshii]

What was passed down to me through instructors and what I have researched is somewhat similar.

Years of training in one Kata before being allowed to learn the next. Endless drills both singular and partner for years on the applications of the Kata. A greater emphasis was put on conditioning and the way you condition as opposed to today's training methods.

A typical class was 2 to 4 hours and was everyday instead of 1.5 to 2 hrs 2 to 3 days a week.

They did not utilize what is referred to as Kihon then. Instead they utilized partner drills. The emphasis was Kata and the applications of the Kata and conditioning. What is referred to as Kihon was what the student did independent of class time.

Imagine that... students training outside of class. [sarcasm] Couldn't help myself.

How much time is left to train outside of class when 2-4 hours are spent training in class everyday. Add work and other responsibilities to the mix. But I agree with your point.

When were you taught your first kata? Was it pretty much immediately, or was it after you had been there for some time?

First day along with applications. The primary teaching tool is Kata.

[MatsuShinshii]

One thing that’s always made me scratch my head is Mas Oyama not teaching bunkai.

Oyama studied under Gichin Funakoshi and his son. Studied under Gogen Yamaguchi and another direct student of Miyagi (Nei-Chu So). Any or all of these men surely would’ve taught Oyama bunkai, and quality bunkai. Yet there are zero accounts of Oyama teaching his students bunkai beyond block/punch/kick.

My only criticism of Seido is we don’t do very much formal bunkai. We have set “self defenses” that if you analyze them actually correspond to kata movements, but I feel like it’s more coincidental than intentional to be honest. Nakamura is a direct student of Oyama, and when he formed Seido, he developed the “self defenses” we practice. I love Seido, but I just wish we spent some time doing bunkai.

But Oyama not passing bunkai on really boggles my mind.

Some instructors did not teach the applications and others would not teach them until a student was awarded Yudansha.

This was for a multitude of reasons, for which I've heard plenty. We teach along with the kata. Hachikyu start learning Pinan Shodan, and immediately learn the applications and are taught two person drills so they can apply what they've learned.

To each their own. I feel that teaching the applications while learning the Kata gives the student a deeper understanding.

[Wastelander]

Just as different instructors do things differently today, different "founders" did things differently back then, too. Was kata a huge part, historically? Yes! The thing I feel the need to point out is that the 3K division (Kihon/Kata/Kumite) was not a standard practice back then, and certainly nowhere near as popular as it is, today. Many instructors considered kumite to simply be part of kata training, because the kumite came from the kata. Kihon was similar. Some instructors chose to heavily focus on physical development before ever getting to the fighting methods, which is what you have essentially described with Miyagi. Others did not, although you will often see statements about having to study certain kata for a long time before learning anything else--as I mentioned, though, that kata study INCLUDES application and kumite, rather than being separate from it. Each instructor had their own reasons for doing things the way they did. Some focused heavily on physical development. Some focused heavily on the practice of solo kata with no application. Some focused heavily on kumite of various types. Etc.

[JR 137]

One thing that’s always made me scratch my head is Mas Oyama not teaching bunkai.

Oyama studied under Gichin Funakoshi and his son. Studied under Gogen Yamaguchi and another direct student of Miyagi (Nei-Chu So). Any or all of these men surely would’ve taught Oyama bunkai, and quality bunkai. Yet there are zero accounts of Oyama teaching his students bunkai beyond block/punch/kick.

My only criticism of Seido is we don’t do very much formal bunkai. We have set “self defenses” that if you analyze them actually correspond to kata movements, but I feel like it’s more coincidental than intentional to be honest. Nakamura is a direct student of Oyama, and when he formed Seido, he developed the “self defenses” we practice. I love Seido, but I just wish we spent some time doing bunkai.

But Oyama not passing bunkai on really boggles my mind.

Some instructors did not teach the applications and others would not teach them until a student was awarded Yudansha.

This was for a multitude of reasons, for which I've heard plenty. We teach along with the kata. Hachikyu start learning Pinan Shodan, and immediately learn the applications and are taught two person drills so they can apply what they've learned.

To each their own. I feel that teaching the applications while learning the Kata gives the student a deeper understanding.

Just for the sake of information...

Oyama was reportedly nanadan (or possibly hachidan) under Gogen Yamaguchi when he left to start the Oyama dojo. I highly doubt Yamaguchi would bestow that rank on anyone who didn’t have a through understanding of bunkai and how to teach it. Why he abandoned bunkai really makes me wonder. Oyama had hundreds, if not thousands of high ranking yudansha under him at the time of his death. Yet there’s not a single report of him teaching bunkai that I’ve seen nor heard of.

Everyone’s got their own philosophies and methods.