The Pageantry of the Martial Arts!!

[sensei8]

I've chosen to place this topic here, Instructor Central, because I believe that the CI, as well as the Governing Body, are the proponents of the pageantry that exists in the MA, yesteryear, today, and in the future. The fault, must have ownership and accountability, and in that, I've assigned those properties to the CI and/or the Governing Body.

Is the pageantry found in the MA really necessary??

No matter the style of the MA, that pageantry exists in the very fibers of either the Governing Body and/or the school of MA or both. Hard to avoid it, and if one avoids it willingly, that individual(s) are shunned forthwith with provocation.

Let me please preface with this thought first, so as in the hopes you'll know where I'm coming from.

Is that tradition?? They'll have you believe it to be so because they want to justify their reason(s) to its existence.

It seems to me that the pageantry are done without reservation and without ever missing a beat. No change in what's to take place in order of which they occur; like clock work!! The students of the MA aren't ever asked, no!! The student of the MA is told what to do!!

Until the pageantry is erased, or at least toned down some, from the MA, in the manner of which I've seen it these past 5 decades, I doubt that I'll ever shadow much MA events. The rules and regulations of the CI and/or the Governing Body are important, however, some of the rules and regulations frame that very pageantry.

The MA schools and their Governing Bodies are just equally guilty of parading the pageantry, and the Master of Ceremonies is none other than the CI!! I stand before you guilty of being that proponent of the very same pageantry that I've grown tired of over these many years.

There's an order in everything found within a MA school and Governing Body, this to be for sure.

1> Meet and greet with bowing

2> Bowing into the school...bowing onto the floor

3> Lining up command

4> Bowing to the CI...bowing to the Shomen...bowing to guests...more bowing

5> Brief Announcements and the like

6> Calisthenics

7> Reviewing with more bowing

8> Lessons with more bowing

9> Drills of the varied types to match today's lesson with more bowing

10> Kata and/or Kumite with more bowing

11> Ending calisthenics and more bowing

12> Closing announcements/homework assignment(s)

13) Bowing out

No, this list isn't to its exacting order because things are done at a whim of the CI, yet staying within the core of that classes lessons for that day. Also, not all MA schools do half of what's listed above, and not because either way is right/wrong, it's just how things differ one school of the MA to another.

Yet, again, we're told!! Not asked!! Lead like the obedient students that we are!! The Dojo Kun, aka, the dojo rules and regulations are an understood part of the dojo culture, but not all of their rules and regulations should remain, however, without rules and regulations, anarchy is birthed, and the culture of learning is tainted.

Don't even get me started on the pageantry that accompanies Award Ceremonies and the like; that's where the pageantry really starts to take a life of its own.

No, I come to learn the MA!! I want to learn the MA, but without all of the pageantry, like bowing and this and that and ten other things. Why all of the bowing?? I'm not of that culture, and while I accept and understand why there's a lot of bowing in the MA, and bowing is of many cultures, in the USA, bowing is not part of our cultures.

Dojo Pageantry, imho, isn't necessary, and slowly but surely, I want to eradicate it from my dojo, short of the Kun. And it possible, I want to eradicate the unnecessary pageantry from our Hombu as well.

What's necessary and what's unnecessary?? That which takes anything away from learning the core of ones chosen MA.

I was raised in the deep throes of Dojo Pageantry my entire MA life. Soke and Dai-Soke were born and raised in Nanjo, Okinawa, and perhaps that's all they knew, in which, they gave no thought or concerns that they were not in Okinawa, but that they were now in the USA. It was their Hombu, and by gosh, they were going to do, and insist that we obey, what they've done their entire live. I didn't know better; I followed and obeyed what I was instructed by Soke and Dai-Soke.

That was then, this is now!!

Maybe my old age is starting to show, and causes me to change my thinking on many of things that are MA related. After all, I'll be 60 years old in a couple of weeks.

Imho!!

Your thoughts??

[Spartacus Maximus]

It could reasonably be suspected that the reason for three “pageantry” is that instructors rarely stray very far from the way they were taught themselves. If one was taught by an Okinawan sensei for decades, then it would obviously follow that one’s teaching methods would at least in some way be heavily influenced by whatever methods one is most familiar with

. Consider the phenomenon of Martial Arts instruction in North America. Most if not all first generation American instructors were military men who learned in the Far East within a military context. Slight differences due to personality and individual character are present, but in general one tends to teach in a very similar way one was taught. Instructors whose teaching methods are radically different from how they were taught are not the norm.

[singularity6]

I've made several posts in other areas that pretty much address this, too.

To reiterate:

The student is always to obey and never question the instructor! Every martial art seems to preach the idea that "one needs to be like water - flow; adapt!" Yet the very structure of the teaching is "It's always been done this way!" I teach math for a living... my job is to break something that others find complicated down into something that's easier to digest. Like anyone else, I frequently see the rest of the world through a lens that's shaped by my profession. It's quite difficult for me to not question the instructor, or try to "find a better way to teach." An example would be our tornado kick... it's a crescent kick followed immediately by a spinning jumping crescent kick with the same leg. That gets introduced to us at 6th geup in our school. Interestingly enough, that gets introduced at the same time as the crescent kick. To me, it would make a lot more sense to break this down... Maybe teach the crescent kick, and maybe a spinning jumping crescent kick separately in one rank, and stitch them together in the next? Nope... It's always been done this way! Lesson learned on my end.

When it comes to cultural traditions, I'm kind of at a loss. Our CIs are American through and through. We live in a rural area that has a relatively homogeneous population (95% white, 80% Christian,) yet when in the school, they attempt to use Korean to count, to issue commands (pronunciation is probably way off.) Class starts off with a Buddhist-style meditation. We wear a traditional karate gi (Tang Soo Do influence?) and bow in, bow out etc. None of this has any place in the UP's daily culture! I'm not even sure I'm doing a proper bow. I learned to bow from a Japanese friend years ago, but is that appropriate in a Korean dojang? We even have Korean characters on our uniforms, and embroidered on our Black Belts belts! I don't think anyone but our master instructor can read them.

I think Bruce Lee had something going when it came to his creation of Jeet Kun Do. When writing Game of Death, he deliberately had practitioners of specific martial arts wearing uniforms inspired by their traditional martial art. He wore a yellow jump suit, swearing off allegiance to any one martial art. While I might be practicing a form of Tae Kwon Do, and while I enjoy putting on the uniform, I often wonder if it's necessary. I'm American, as are my CIs and Master Instructor. None of us speak Korean outside the few words we use for class, and none of us practice Buddhism. What's the point of including such practices in our school? Does it really have meaning? Or are we simply vacuously going through motions?

[MatsuShinshii]

Most of what you have as a class schedule we do not do. We do bow into the dojo and to the founders and to the instructor and off the floor when we leave.

I'm not sure if I would categorize this as pageantry or as tradition or as just plane old respect or a sign of common courtesy.

These are not American traditions this is true. However the art is not American either but we study it. I know where you are coming from but IMHO I find nothing wrong with showing respect to the art, it's founders or the instructor if you truly respect them.

As far as ceremonies go, 100% agree. It's down right sickening how much bowing goes on just for the mere sake of bowing. I agree this makes me sick as well and I refuse to join in to the cult of bobble heads. In fact I will go so far as to stop students and other instructors alike and ask them why they are bowing. If you don't know why then stop doing it.

The real problem is that most do not understand why they are bowing and when they should or should not be bowing. This over bowing comes from the Japanization of the art. Showing respect to the art. the founders and to the instructor for passing on the knowledge is in my book worthy of a bow. All the rest of it, bowing to everyone as they pass you, to guests that don't even understand the meaning of it , and at the beginning and end of every exercise is a clear misunderstanding of the practice.

Oh and once bowed to it is not necessary to do it again and again. Once will suffice. I like you can not understand the reasoning behind bowing every time a student asks a question or an instructor gives instruction. Once is enough.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[singularity6]

On the flip-side of what I said: We do call these things we practice Martial ARTS!

[MatsuShinshii]

I've made several posts in other areas that pretty much address this, too.

To reiterate:

The student is always to obey and never question the instructor! Every martial art seems to preach the idea that "one needs to be like water - flow; adapt!" Yet the very structure of the teaching is "It's always been done this way!" I teach math for a living... my job is to break something that others find complicated down into something that's easier to digest. Like anyone else, I frequently see the rest of the world through a lens that's shaped by my profession. It's quite difficult for me to not question the instructor, or try to "find a better way to teach." An example would be our tornado kick... it's a crescent kick followed immediately by a spinning jumping crescent kick with the same leg. That gets introduced to us at 6th geup in our school. Interestingly enough, that gets introduced at the same time as the crescent kick. To me, it would make a lot more sense to break this down... Maybe teach the crescent kick, and maybe a spinning jumping crescent kick separately in one rank, and stitch them together in the next? Nope... It's always been done this way! Lesson learned on my end.

With all due respect I must disagree with you that all MA's are this way. During class you are correct. Do what the instructor says. After class we have a question/answer exchange in which the students are able to ask any question and to question anything that was taught.

The reason you do not question the instructor during the class is as simple as it takes to much time away from training, it's a distraction and it's not respectful. However there is nothing wrong with asking, "why are we doing this" or "why is it done this way", etc. fill in the blanks.

If an instructor is not willing to teach, meaning showing the technique/ application and then be willing to explain and even answer, then I would leave that school. Because I said so does not work in combative arts. The student must have an understanding of what they are learning and why they are learning it. If not, how do you know it works?

So no, we are not all alike.

When it comes to cultural traditions, I'm kind of at a loss. Our CIs are American through and through. We live in a rural area that has a relatively homogeneous population (95% white, 80% Christian,) yet when in the school, they attempt to use Korean to count, to issue commands (pronunciation is probably way off.) Class starts off with a Buddhist-style meditation. We wear a traditional karate gi (Tang Soo Do influence?) and bow in, bow out etc. None of this has any place in the UP's daily culture! I'm not even sure I'm doing a proper bow. I learned to bow from a Japanese friend years ago, but is that appropriate in a Korean dojang? We even have Korean characters on our uniforms, and embroidered on our Black Belts belts! I don't think anyone but our master instructor can read them.

This is sad. We utilize the language to teach because my Shinshii's teacher was Okinawan and could only say a few words in English so he taught the way his instructor taught him. Not to be cool but because this was the way he was taught.

As a Hachidan I knew what the Kanji said, I knew what the words meant (or at least represented) and could to some degree utilize that language in class. Over years it is picked up and you begin to understand more and more of the language.

I must confess I am my Shinshii's student and as such teach using the Japanese or Uchinaaguchi (Hogan) languages. Since the art is not American and was taught to me in this way I carry on those traditions because to be honest we don't have words to properly describe some of the Hogan words.

Having said this, all too often this is not the case and the language is used without understanding and your master instructor might understand the writings but all too many don't. If you do not speak or at least understand the words don't use them. If you can not pick up your arts grade certification and read what is on it, you shouldn't be using it.

A short story. Years ago I had a student ask to train. I interviewed him and one of my questions is if they have had past experience. He said yes and produced a grade certification that said nothing about martial arts whatsoever. In fact it said nothing coherent. It was just words and some where not even words but made up jibberish.

When I asked for his instructors information and called him, I was told that he used the same cert's that he was given by his instructor (of course some mystical person that could not be contacted because he lives in the mountains of Japan and has no phone or address). The bottom line is, many use this to hide their fraud. Others use it because it's tradition even though they have no idea what it says.

If you do not know what the Kanji on your Gi says you should ask. There are no stupid questions, only stupid students for not asking them, or stupid instructors for not answering them.

A student should be encouraged to ask questions. This is how we all learn. If an instructor says you can't ask questions, you should ask where the door is because you should be using it to leave. An honest instructor is not afraid of questions. He may not answer them until you have a better understanding of the art but they should answer them. If not they are hiding something.

If a student blindly follows instruction without question this is a cult not a Dojo.

Those that are afraid of being questioned have huge ego's and little knowledge. Think about it.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Each and every dojo or school has its own set of “customs” and “traditions”. Regardless of a given instructor’s background, some or all of these will be continued by the next generation.

It is very difficult to completely avoid because people do this out of the need to be connected to whatever system they teach and train. People also have widely different personalities, which is the reason why some will have a tendency to go overboard to the point of appearing pompous or rediculous.

[singularity6]

I've made several posts in other areas that pretty much address this, too.

With all due respect I must disagree with you that all MA's are this way. During class you are correct. Do what the instructor says. After class we have a question/answer exchange in which the students are able to ask any question and to question anything that was taught.

The reason you do not question the instructor during the class is as simple as it takes to much time away from training, it's a distraction and it's not respectful. However there is nothing wrong with asking, "why are we doing this" or "why is it done this way", etc. fill in the blanks.

If an instructor is not willing to teach, meaning showing the technique/ application and then be willing to explain and even answer, then I would leave that school. Because I said so does not work in combative arts. The student must have an understanding of what they are learning and why they are learning it. If not, how do you know it works?

So no, we are not all alike.

It sounds like you have a fairly progressive school! I'm not one to question the instructors on the floor, and I have had conversations with both the CIs and the MI outside of the class. "You're just a green belt" has been brought up during these conversations. Part of the reason for this is that my CIs are relatively new, and the MI doesn't want dissent sewn, which I can understand.

I know that while what happens in my school isn't ubiquitous, it's also not unique.

This is sad. We utilize the language to teach because my Shinshii's teacher was Okinawan and could only say a few words in English so he taught the way his instructor taught him. Not to be cool but because this was the way he was taught.

As a Hachidan I knew what the Kanji said, I knew what the words meant (or at least represented) and could to some degree utilize that language in class. Over years it is picked up and you begin to understand more and more of the language.

I must confess I am my Shinshii's student and as such teach using the Japanese or Uchinaaguchi (Hogan) languages. Since the art is not American and was taught to me in this way I carry on those traditions because to be honest we don't have words to properly describe some of the Hogan words.

Having said this, all too often this is not the case and the language is used without understanding and your master instructor might understand the writings but all too many don't. If you do not speak or at least understand the words don't use them. If you can not pick up your arts grade certification and read what is on it, you shouldn't be using it.

A short story. Years ago I had a student ask to train. I interviewed him and one of my questions is if they have had past experience. He said yes and produced a grade certification that said nothing about martial arts whatsoever. In fact it said nothing coherent. It was just words and some where not even words but made up jibberish.

When I asked for his instructors information and called him, I was told that he used the same cert's that he was given by his instructor (of course some mystical person that could not be contacted because he lives in the mountains of Japan and has no phone or address). The bottom line is, many use this to hide their fraud. Others use it because it's tradition even though they have no idea what it says.

If you do not know what the Kanji on your Gi says you should ask. There are no stupid questions, only stupid students for not asking them, or stupid instructors for not answering them.

A student should be encouraged to ask questions. This is how we all learn. If an instructor says you can't ask questions, you should ask where the door is because you should be using it to leave. An honest instructor is not afraid of questions. He may not answer them until you have a better understanding of the art but they should answer them. If not they are hiding something.

If a student blindly follows instruction without question this is a cult not a Dojo.

Those that are afraid of being questioned have huge ego's and little knowledge. Think about it.

Again, we are discouraged to challenge the instructor. We are not discouraged from asking questions, however.

It seems like you are seeing my point when it comes to the language and the "adaptation" of the Asian culture. Personally, I'm quite eager to learn about other cultures, and even immerse myself in them for a time - but only if they're done properly!

[sensei8]

I've made several posts in other areas that pretty much address this, too.

To reiterate:

The student is always to obey and never question the instructor! Every martial art seems to preach the idea that "one needs to be like water - flow; adapt!" Yet the very structure of the teaching is "It's always been done this way!" I teach math for a living... my job is to break something that others find complicated down into something that's easier to digest. Like anyone else, I frequently see the rest of the world through a lens that's shaped by my profession. It's quite difficult for me to not question the instructor, or try to "find a better way to teach." An example would be our tornado kick... it's a crescent kick followed immediately by a spinning jumping crescent kick with the same leg. That gets introduced to us at 6th geup in our school. Interestingly enough, that gets introduced at the same time as the crescent kick. To me, it would make a lot more sense to break this down... Maybe teach the crescent kick, and maybe a spinning jumping crescent kick separately in one rank, and stitch them together in the next? Nope... It's always been done this way! Lesson learned on my end.

With all due respect I must disagree with you that all MA's are this way. During class you are correct. Do what the instructor says. After class we have a question/answer exchange in which the students are able to ask any question and to question anything that was taught.

The reason you do not question the instructor during the class is as simple as it takes to much time away from training, it's a distraction and it's not respectful. However there is nothing wrong with asking, "why are we doing this" or "why is it done this way", etc. fill in the blanks.

If an instructor is not willing to teach, meaning showing the technique/ application and then be willing to explain and even answer, then I would leave that school. Because I said so does not work in combative arts. The student must have an understanding of what they are learning and why they are learning it. If not, how do you know it works?

So no, we are not all alike.

When it comes to cultural traditions, I'm kind of at a loss. Our CIs are American through and through. We live in a rural area that has a relatively homogeneous population (95% white, 80% Christian,) yet when in the school, they attempt to use Korean to count, to issue commands (pronunciation is probably way off.) Class starts off with a Buddhist-style meditation. We wear a traditional karate gi (Tang Soo Do influence?) and bow in, bow out etc. None of this has any place in the UP's daily culture! I'm not even sure I'm doing a proper bow. I learned to bow from a Japanese friend years ago, but is that appropriate in a Korean dojang? We even have Korean characters on our uniforms, and embroidered on our Black Belts belts! I don't think anyone but our master instructor can read them.

This is sad. We utilize the language to teach because my Shinshii's teacher was Okinawan and could only say a few words in English so he taught the way his instructor taught him. Not to be cool but because this was the way he was taught.

As a Hachidan I knew what the Kanji said, I knew what the words meant (or at least represented) and could to some degree utilize that language in class. Over years it is picked up and you begin to understand more and more of the language.

I must confess I am my Shinshii's student and as such teach using the Japanese or Uchinaaguchi (Hogan) languages. Since the art is not American and was taught to me in this way I carry on those traditions because to be honest we don't have words to properly describe some of the Hogan words.

Having said this, all too often this is not the case and the language is used without understanding and your master instructor might understand the writings but all too many don't. If you do not speak or at least understand the words don't use them. If you can not pick up your arts grade certification and read what is on it, you shouldn't be using it.

A short story. Years ago I had a student ask to train. I interviewed him and one of my questions is if they have had past experience. He said yes and produced a grade certification that said nothing about martial arts whatsoever. In fact it said nothing coherent. It was just words and some where not even words but made up jibberish.

When I asked for his instructors information and called him, I was told that he used the same cert's that he was given by his instructor (of course some mystical person that could not be contacted because he lives in the mountains of Japan and has no phone or address). The bottom line is, many use this to hide their fraud. Others use it because it's tradition even though they have no idea what it says.

If you do not know what the Kanji on your Gi says you should ask. There are no stupid questions, only stupid students for not asking them, or stupid instructors for not answering them.

A student should be encouraged to ask questions. This is how we all learn. If an instructor says you can't ask questions, you should ask where the door is because you should be using it to leave. An honest instructor is not afraid of questions. He may not answer them until you have a better understanding of the art but they should answer them. If not they are hiding something.

If a student blindly follows instruction without question this is a cult not a Dojo.

Those that are afraid of being questioned have huge ego's and little knowledge. Think about it.

Solid post!!

I'm the CI, but in being the CI I do not own my students. They are not my property to do with as I wish. Even as Kaicho of the SKKA, I'm not holding my position and title over their heads; they can come and go as they please, and they are not accountable to me. I'm accountable to them.

Yes, in my position as their CI or as their Kaicho, I've a range of authority within the dojo or the Hombu, but that is limited across the board. I can use the smoke and mirrors to aide the pageantry, but when the smoke clears and the mirrors are shattered, what one is left with is the pageantry of the MA, and that way is the way of emptiness.

To do this or to do that to make one appear more than what they really are, are the acts of a vain and insecure MAist. That pageantry props the illusion, and releases the beast that lives within that MAist.

I've seen one particular style of the MA use the pageantry of the MA negatively to the Nth degree; to me, that particular style is using the pageantry of the MA to cover the ineffectiveness of what they are proponents of.

I'm done with the pageantry of the MA...the pageantry of the dojo...and in that, change is inevitable, and the time has come to eliminate the pageantry from my dojo as well as from our Hombu.

The pageantry is not what a student has come for. That student came to learn an effective means of protecting themselves, and their loved ones, and their friends, and the innocent.

Let's put the student first, and the Hombu/Dojo last, once and for all!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

There does not seem to be any unanimous agreement on what is or is not included in “pageantry”. For some it might include any and every aspect of school/dojo protocol, ranks. For others the defenition extends to everything that is “foreign” such as terminology or concepts tied to the cultural view point of where or when the martial art came from.

It might also include everything that is not strictly physical, such as martial arts ethics and moral thinking with regards to when or why one must or must not use the techniques learned.

Doing away with pageantry is a well and good, but it makes little sense if one replaces it with another kind of something similar.