Karate & Jujutsu

[MatsuShinshii]

I have heard several times that Jujutsu was an influence of Karate.

Where does this come from besides an educated guess of deductive reasoning? The is no documentation of this fact, so where does it come from?

Well I have been told this as well due to deductive reasoning. Matsumura studied kenjutsu under the Satsuma and it would not be a stretch to assume that he would have also studied their empty hand arts during this time frame coupled with the fact that many of the muto (tegumi) techniques are very similar in both look and application when compared to Jujutsu.

I have my own personal opinion based on recent research. Jiao Di or what is now called Shuai Jiao (Chinese wrestling) pre-dates both Jujutsu and Karate and in looking at its applications/ techniques one can see the same similarities.

Knowing that Qin Na heavily influenced Tuidi (torite, tuite) it would not in my mind be a stretch to consider that Jiao Di was also passed on to the Okinawan founders as many arts incorporated not Qin Na and Jiao Di into there arts just as they are today.

It is also very plausible that it was a mixture of Jujutsu and Jiao Di. But of course this is all speculation as I have yet to find definitive proof for either argument.

It is however certain that the execution and intent of Muto vs Jujutsu is very different. Muto aims to cause major damage with the throws that are incorporated. The pushing hand drives the opponent down typically by the head or neck and it is doubled by the fact that vital points, weak targets and cavities are utilized to facilitate the opponent to move in the direction of the pushing hand and to cause maximum damage to boot.

Your thoughts?

[Tempest]

My thoughts?

With regards to what part of this?

Jujitsu, by the time of Karate's development in to ANY of the forms that we know today, had really become a catch-all term for "whatever close fighting you know" in large parts of Japan. Some of the Ryu were still teaching the older ways, but they were certainly dying off. This is the environment in which Judo was developed by Dr. Kano as a young man.

However, during Matsumura's time, there would have been well established schools for fighting, and if he studied at Jigen, then there is no reason to believe he did not train in Jujitsu as that was the common practice in that time period in Japanese martial arts. That is, if a student comes to learn, then they learn all of it, not just one particular art. The older koryu schools did not believe in separating the types of fighting as much as they did later. So, the further back you go, the more likely a student would have been cross-trained right from the beginning.

Additionally, as far as I can tell, Matsumura was essentially a military man. A diplomat, probably a spy, and certainly a bodyguard, eventually, to the royal family. Such men are known for accumulating fighting skills from wherever they go. By the time Matsumura was writing and teaching as an older man, he had probably been "influenced" by a dozen or more different styles he had seen in his life.

All of that being said, the real place to look for "influences" in the martial arts, is in fundamental body mechanics and approach to delivering and receiving force. That is where you will find systemic differences even in techniques that look quite similar.

Now, as to whether I believe Jujitsu is or was a big influence on Karate? Yes, I absolutely do believe it was. Not in the "well you stole your stuff from Jujutsu" way, but in the fact that Judo, the most prominent and IMO most effective form of Jujitsu, started being taught to Japanese school children just before Karate started really spreading to Japan. As a result of which, there are a LOT of people, especially in the Shotokan and GoJu schools, that are cross-trained in both systems. To say that this doesn't influence them would be silly.

[MatsuShinshii]

The older koryu schools did not believe in separating the types of fighting as much as they did later. So, the further back you go, the more likely a student would have been cross-trained right from the beginning.

Additionally, as far as I can tell, Matsumura was essentially a military man. A diplomat, probably a spy, and certainly a bodyguard, eventually, to the royal family. Such men are known for accumulating fighting skills from wherever they go. By the time Matsumura was writing and teaching as an older man, he had probably been "influenced" by a dozen or more different styles he had seen in his life.

As to the first paragraph. Agreed. Toudi (Karate) and Buki'gwa (Kobudo) were practiced hand in hand unlike today. I have no reason to believe that the Japanese fighting arts would be any different.

As to the 2nd paragraph. I agree again. We know that he studied under many teachers. At least one of which was represented by the Satsuma clan in Japan.

All of that being said, the real place to look for "influences" in the martial arts, is in fundamental body mechanics and approach to delivering and receiving force. That is where you will find systemic differences even in techniques that look quite similar.

Agreed which is why I brought this for discussion. Logically Karate or more poignantly Muto (Tegumi) was influenced by one of the arts or both. In my mind I can see influences through similarities from possibly both minus the fact that we execute them a bit differently. Jiao Di was a militarized form of grappling but in that time I have to believe that Jujutsu was as well. I guess that would be the real indicator. I'll have to research Jujutsu quite a bit more.

Now, as to whether I believe Jujitsu is or was a big influence on Karate? Yes, I absolutely do believe it was. Not in the "well you stole your stuff from Jujutsu" way, but in the fact that Judo, the most prominent and IMO most effective form of Jujitsu, started being taught to Japanese school children just before Karate started really spreading to Japan. As a result of which, there are a LOT of people, especially in the Shotokan and GoJu schools, that are cross-trained in both systems. To say that this doesn't influence them would be silly.

I appreciate your input on this and the information contained within the post but I was primarily speaking of original influence not after it was Japanized. I have no doubt that Judo and Modern Jujutsu played a huge role on influencing the Japanese. I should have stated this in the original post. I am mainly concerned with Toudi's influence not on Karate's influence. Pre-Funakoshi.

But again I appreciate the information.

[sensei8]

My thought...

I don't care what might've influenced Karate into existence because I'm, as a Karateka, am so very glad that Karate exists, nonetheless!! I don't care what might've influenced the dessert, Death By Chocolate, because I'm glad that it exists!!

"That's not so deep, Bob!!" Yep, that's me...simple Bob!!

[Kusotare]

Muto aims to cause major damage with the throws that are incorporated. The pushing hand drives the opponent down typically by the head or neck and it is doubled by the fact that vital points, weak targets and cavities are utilized to facilitate the opponent to move in the direction of the pushing hand and to cause maximum damage to boot.

Sounds exactly like koryu jujutsu to me.