Skills or Techniques, Ornamental or Tricks

[Alan Armstrong]

Boxing skills. Karate techniques. Ornamental Kung Fu. Extreme TKD tricks.

I was brought up in the developing your skills age; learn the trade not the tricks.

Times have changed, now learn the tricks of the trade, as opponents haven't learned how to stop what they don't recognize also the world is always on the lookout for the new or next best thing.

It is if the world is spinning faster and everyone on it.

Martial arts were developed slowly, over centuries, handed down from one generation to the next; why things have changed so fast.

Could mixed martial arts eventually absorb and destroy all traditional martial arts?

Perhaps in the future traditional martial arts will become like endangered species that will need to be listed and preserved?

[Tempest]

There are entirely too many things being taught under the heading of 'traditional martial arts' that only have the vaguest connection to shared reality, if at all.

This has created a situation in which people who can make honest, if more limited, claims about what they can do with martial arts, are MUCH more marketable.

If "traditional" martial arts want to survive, they need to realize where many of the arts they practice have lost their way as fighting systems and become marketing tricks.

While a cage-fight is not the be-all, end-all of fighting, if you are uncomfortable with the idea of being in such an encounter, with rules and with only one unarmed opponent, then do NOT try to tell me that you can prevail in a far more dangerous non-sporting encounter. That is the LEAST of the ridiculous assertions made by many traditional martial artists.

It is such assertions, along with some very shady practices by many well known figures and organizations in the traditional martial arts world, that tend to drive people away, not just the flash and pop of a modern sporting event.

[DWx]

It comes down to why people are training. Not everyone trains to learn to fight, sometimes self defence is just a by-product of keeping fit or taking part in a fun activity.

Some people like learning traditional styles for the tradition, not to be cage-fighters.

[singularity6]

It comes down to why people are training. Not everyone trains to learn to fight, sometimes self defence is just a by-product of keeping fit or taking part in a fun activity.

Some people like learning traditional styles for the tradition, not to be cage-fighters.

My primary focus was physical fitness, and largely still is. I am kind of a nerd, so the art and the history of martial arts are hugely fascinating to me. I'm sure I'm not alone, here!

[MatsuShinshii]

It comes down to why people are training. Not everyone trains to learn to fight, sometimes self defence is just a by-product of keeping fit or taking part in a fun activity.

Some people like learning traditional styles for the tradition, not to be cage-fighters.

DWx, you bring up an issue I have with those that would call themselves traditional martial artists. I hope you do not mind me taking what you posted as a reference. This is not pointed at you.

I guess it comes down to the definition of traditional.

In my definition, traditional or "Old School", it means combative self defense, not a way to stay fit. Some may not like what Tempest has said because it slaps them square in the face with the reality that what they think is "traditional" is really modern/sport.

If your into being spiritual or are looking to rack up the trophies then you should not be looking for a traditional art in the real sense of the term. Instead find a modern day art.

The fact of the matter is, Tempest points out the obvious, in that if you can not handle yourself well enough to fight in the cage then your chances out on the street against multiple attackers is not even a pipe dream. Yes the cage/ring poses challenges to traditional arts in that they have rules against effective techniques that would be used in a life or death situation but the rules do not tie ones hands. What I would call old school teaches the student to FIGHT. It teaches tried and tested techniques that were and have been used in life and death situations.

The premise that arts like Karate or Kung Fu are to maintain physical fitness or that they are some kind of spiritual journey or after school baby sitting service that teaches games and everything but the art itself is a modern westernization business model and not even a minimally close representation of what the true purpose of the arts are.

I hate to burst the kumbaya bubble but the art was invented as a combative art. The whole notion that we should change it to represent some sort of fitness club is preposterous. Join a gym, pilates or yoga studio. If your looking for spiritual enlightenment join a church.

I have studied a "traditional" or what I prefer to call old school art for 35+ years and never thought of it as anything other than what it is... a combative self defense art. The fitness and learning to be a better person (I will not call it spiritual enlightenment because my teacher was not a Buddhist monk and did not speak in brain tickling riddles nor was he a priest) aspect of the art is a by product of studying the art not the focus.

If you want to know why so many so called traditional arts protest the testing of their skills in the ring and in the cage, it's because they have spent their entire time in the arts going to point sparring matches where proper distance and timing are valued over an actual outcome. Its were the better of the two ends up loosing. It's because the rules of modern Karate do not allow one to test themselves as they would be in arts like Boxing, Judo, BJJ, and MMA to name a few where the outcome can not be contested because the winner is standing and the loser is on his/her back. When the tournament system was started they removed any and all dangerous, not to mention deadly techniques. All grappling, joint locks and throws where removed and what you had left was who could score cleaner and faster.

The reality is this does not translate to real life confrontations. If you want to claim that your art is traditional then you should be teaching students to fight. This means returning to the practices of old school arts rather than maintaining those of modern day sport arts. Ever wonder why techniques used in Kumite do not match what is taught in Kata? Why even teach the Kata if you do not extract and teach what the Kata contains? Are you going to bounce around and wait to score a point on the streets? Oh no there's no referee to call your opponent to their corner, what now? This is NOT traditional MA.

It makes me laugh when I hear a so called traditionalist claim that it is not fair that they allow grappling, throws and submissions. The reason I laugh is because in stating this they also state that they are not traditional.

Traditional arts teach students to grapple (its the oldest form of fighting, wrestling has been around longer than most forms of fighting, what happens when two non skilled fighters meet? They start to wrestle!), they teach joint manipulation and they teach them how to take down or throw an opponent. Granted it may not be at the level of a Judoka or a Jujutsuka but they are taught the basics. Ground fighting is a different subject altogether as the intent is different. The Karateka's intent is to return to their feet where the MMA, Judo or Jujutsu fighter is to stay on the ground. However this does not negate the fact that traditional arts have these components within their perspective arts and to say that the cards are stacked against traditional arts is ludicrous.

Oh and another problem with the argument against fighting in a cage... Karateka and the like are active fighters in MMA. Look at Ice Man who is a Kempo fighter. They like other arts had to adapt to the multitude of arts. Some took other arts to compliment their art in the cage. Machida (can't remember his first name) is a Karateka who went far in the UFC. Didn't hear him making excuses for his art.

My point is it's not the art that needs fixed it's the teachers and organizations that need to be fixed. You can't claim to be a traditional art when you teach modern/sport inside your Dojo and then make excuses why your art would not do well in ANY situation. It's not the art. The art was developed under battle field real life conditions in which one man walked away and another did not. All martial arts (or at least those developed out of the need to defend oneself or ones nation/country/village/etc) where developed with one purpose... to teach combative skills. It was developed by the noble/military class to defend against other forces/nations/etc. It was not developed to sit around and sing kumbaya around a campfire or to maintain your beach body.

It all comes down to a persons definition of what traditional means. In my definition it most certainly does not mean teaching yoga, calisthenics or preaching a sermon in the dojo, it means learning the combative methods of self defense and it means that you can handle yourself inside and outside of the Dojo even when there are no referee's and judges.

And lets just get this out there that there is no bad or worthless *old school art. Don't blame the art if you get your you know what handed to you. There is no one that is un-beatable. If there was it would make for a pretty predictable fight and there would be no reason for one person to get into the ring with another if there was no chance of victory. An art is only as good as the practitioner when applied in actual combat. We all have limitations and not everyone that studies an art is going to be a phenom. I can't stand the argument that because so and so studied this art and he lost, the conclusion is the art he studied is no good. There are a lot of considerations such as his/her skill level, natural ability, their teacher and their ability to pass on the art, etc, etc, etc. My point is don't bash on the art because someone you know or have seen lost. Oh and I forgot the most obvious point... those that claim to teach an traditional art that actually teach a modern/sport art. Imagine that!

* Old School meaning an art that was developed over many centuries for the soul purpose of teaching combative skills and have been tried and tested in actual combat. This does not mean modern arts that were created as a means of sport that are called traditional.

[DWx]

First of all, great post MatsuShinshii. You bring up some great points.

Would it be fair to say you are talking about traditional martial arts from a Bujutsu 術 perspective rather than a Budo 道 one?

Whilst I do agree that that traditional styles and schools can and are highly effective at combat if practiced it the right way, that doesn't mean that every student specifically goes to the dojo to be a warrior and fighter. I don't think we should look down on those who train without that goal in mind. Some people honestly just like learning to control their own body and learn the intricacies of techniques.

I hate to burst the kumbaya bubble but the art was invented as a combative art. The whole notion that we should change it to represent some sort of fitness club is preposterous. Join a gym, pilates or yoga studio. If your looking for spiritual enlightenment join a church.

I don't think anyone is asking for systems to change to cater to fitness goals. People train and get fit (and learn to fight) in the process.

The problem I see here also is that pure combat isn't the sole goal with all "traditional" styles. Yes what you say is true for true-Koryu schools but not necessarily for those styles developed after the Meiji Restoration, if you label them under the "traditional" banner.

[sensei8]

Could mixed martial arts eventually absorb and destroy all traditional martial arts?

Perhaps in the future traditional martial arts will become like endangered species that will need to be listed and preserved?

I don't think that'll ever happen. While the MMA has sunk it's teeth into the landscape of the MA, those other styles have already been around for much longer than MMA, and in that, those 'traditional' MA have an incredible following. To much to just sweep it under the MMA rug!!

I mean, "all" is quite a lot to consider! MMA is just one thing among a sea of 'traditional' things!!

[Alan Armstrong]

I understand that MMA isn't a style it is a set of rules, yet younger generation fighters are training as if was a style!

Perhaps the new trend is to develop styles based on rules, such as what is happening with MMA?

An MMA style of fighting, doing away with any type of traditional martial art affiliations altogether?

Will they give out MMA colored belts, do you wonder?

[tallgeese]

It comes down to why people are training. Not everyone trains to learn to fight, sometimes self defence is just a by-product of keeping fit or taking part in a fun activity.

Some people like learning traditional styles for the tradition, not to be cage-fighters.

This. This is really the crux of it. Everyone trains for different reasons at different times in their life. The only think I ask is that everyone should be up front with what they are teaching. New students may not understand the decision making process or realities of various outlets for martial arts.

I used to be way more hardline on this. Martial arts is about fighting.....blah, blah, blah. I was militant about it. The 40 year old me is far more forgiving on this matter than the 25 year old me was.