Why karate is detrimental.

[KickChick]

Bravo John ...

 

Freestyler, much of what you have posted is of course your opinions and you are entitled to them.... and yet they are generalizations (much of what anyone can read if they pop onto any JKD site).

 

I fight full contact, and have crosstrained in various self defense/close qtr techniques ... I feel confident in my abilities and maybe for you "the fight" is what drives you in your endeavor in the "martial arts", for some of us it may something else.

 

There is nothing wrong with tradition ... hey you wouldn't be here without it!

[karatekid1975]

Amen, Kickchick

[omnifinite]

It isn't Karate's fault that a lot of Karate instructors don't know Karate. A lot of people do have the mindset and training problems you're saying they do... but those people aren't doing real Karate if you ask me.

 

There's still a whole lot I don't know about Karate (in fact I'm doing Kempo, it's probably a little different), but I'll stick a few of my opinions in here and hopefully I'm not way off base. The other Karate people have already covered a lot of things...

The placement of the hands at the hips - this creates a bad habit as well. A lot of people adopt this when sparring. After placing your hands on your hips thousands of times after performing a punch, what makes you think you're going to keep them up in a real fight ? Boxers have trouble keeping their hands up at first, only after being constantly told to keep their hands up & kicked in the face so they keep them up.

 

I don't think that's done merely to teach you to chamber a punch, and I don't think it's really meant to be used in combat either. You shouldn't have to chamber a punch... you should be able to strike from wherever your hand happens to be without hesitation or pulling back first. I believe the emphasis on bringing the other hand back isn't meant to be taken as literally as it seems to be these days. Being taught to put the other hand at your side not only makes sure that you're constantly aware of your other weapons (and keeping them available) and not forgetting about everything but your striking fist... but it also teaches you to grab/twist/claw/whatever simultaneously... a fluid push and pull... striking and grabbing/off-balancing... etc etc all at the same time. It can be applied to a lot of things and really what the other hand is doing is just as important as what your striking fist is doing. But the fact that that element is a bit more hidden makes it easy to get ignored as the art gets watered down. People who think there's nothing going on beyond their knuckles in that usual punching movement are missing out. I've never been told that I'm actually supposed to fight in that position (or any position for that matter).

The stances - some of the stances can supposedly be adopted to provide a solid stance, so your opponent can't move you. Are you seriously going to adopt one of these in a fight ? If someone punches/kicks you in the head, it'd actually work better for them since you've got nowhere to move your head and lessen the impact of the strike.

 

I would hope you wouldn't fight in a set stance. I think this is another thing that's taken too literally by the people who don't know any better. I don't believe a stance is anything you set yourself into. I believe it's a snapshot of a moment in time. It's transitional. You set yourself in those stances as you're training so your body recognizes different positions and is comfortable in them as it moves through them, not into them. It's about footwork... being just as aware of your legs and feet (and the targets within them) as you are of your upper body. It's about understanding how to put your body precisely where you want it when you want it without requiring extra steps and without tripping all over yourself. It's all impressively fluid I think... but again, the people who think you just stand there are missing out.

 

As for the basics being done slowly, then eventually at full speed, I'm not quite sure where you see the problem. That the people learning incorrectly aren't getting it right in the slow stage and giving themselves bad habits? I'd agree with you there. I don't think that's a Karate issue... I'd almost call it an issue that's dealt with in martial arts as a whole... or martial arts that focus on precision anyway.

 

And the people not being taught real self-defense aren't being taught real Karate. Talk to some hardcore Shorin-ryu or Kyokushin people and see what they have to say about that. Check them for scars and missing teeth and repeatedly broken bones while you're at it .

 

I think I'm starting to see that (in my experience) Karate that's true to its roots is actually a lot like JKD and other arts like that. It's very sad that Karate has gotten so mangled and corrupted in so many schools that arts like JKD had to, well, rebel against Karate by returning to it. There's some irony in there somewhere.

 

I think maybe you've been fed a Karate strawman the newer arts like to adopt and tear down... and it's hard to blame them when so many schools are exactly what you guys say they are. Blame sloppiness and misguidedness and greed and egotism for all the awful schools out there that label themselves "Karate" today... not the art itself.

 

But, just my opinions so far. There's always much more to learn.

[Killer Miller]

I hate to say it, but this post is another comparison of what someone doesn't know about our "art" of traditional karate. Additionally, it also demonstrates typical references to lower level practioners of traditional karate, and not the higher levels of expertise.

 

Traditional karate, when perfected, is "extremely" dangerous! People would get seriously hurt with full contact at the levels of perfection that traditional karate concepts are based upon. There are far more things that are taught in the art that are not seen in the pre-black belt stages of development. You have to be dedicated, build your strengths, strategies, control, speed, and flexibility in order to truly understand the traditional art of karate. Someone that wants a "quick fix" for street fighting, then yes street fighting is the answer. Someone that wants to develop their mind/body to its maximum potential, then traditional karate is most certainly a proper avenue for this development...

 

Perhaps you should be a little more scientific in your approach for analysis of the traditional arts.

 

- Killer -

Hi guys,

 

just thought I'd post my opinion on karate's training methods and why I don't think it's effective for self defense. I'd like to hear your thoughts on my comments.

 

[snip]

[Red J]

The best point made is that incorrect technique perfected is a perfectly incorrect technique.

 

I've never seen anyone spar in a horse stance chambering their punches...drills and stances have other value, like push-ups. I do a lot of push-ups but I would never use them as a self defense technique.

Edited December 19, 2002 by Red J

[BlueDragon1981]

I think that depending on the teacher and the style is what makes anything effective. Oh and also the student. I can see where kata may cause some concern but there are already many threads and opinions on that....so i won't get into that. Karate is effective only if you have a good teacher and student. In my opinion that goes with the majority of things in life not just MA. I could say certain grappling arts are ineffective....but I am a MA who trains in multiple styles so it would be unfair to say that considering I know how to combat many takedowns and locks. Its all in the knowledge you have and how you apply it.

[KU]

Many guys started another style just to grant themselves a 125147574 dan and the privilege of calling themselves Masters, Shihans, Senseis and so on.

 

I like it, the thought of a 125147574 dan it quite a scary one. But what you have said is very true there are a lot of people around more worried about how many gold tips they have on there belt then putting all that they have into there training. Then again if that’s what they want.

 

Anyway back to the topic at hand, I would have to say I totally disagree with freestyler (IMO of course), it showed a lack of a fundamental understanding of traditional karate (as many of the people above have said). You talked about hands on hips, stances and sparing as being basically a waste of time as they had not real fighting application, well at a basic level this may be true as the understanding of what your actually doing isn’t great. However, at a more advanced level the real fighting application of these things becomes quite obvious. They are simply the foundation of good karate, no I wouldn’t try fighting from a horse stance but basic stances give you the ability to place your feet anywhere in a fight and still be on balance (you can’t always stand in a standard fighting stance). A real fight is very unpredictable and it is these basic thing that prepare you for any situation.

 

You also talked about lower grades practicing basic techniques too fast, well I personally haven’t seen too many places where this is encouraged (maybe you have) the whole point of basics is so lower grades can get the technique right before the attempt to apply speed to it, (in some cases speed is to lower grade technique to try and loosen them up as lower grades have a tendency to get very tence).

 

I don’t know if you have done much training in traditional karate (I’m talking years), maybe you should if you want to understand why traditional karate contains these elements.

[Size7Gi]

Although I do feel it would be more noble not to enter into this discussion, sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut!

 

When it comes to advancement in technique since my first karate class in 1979 I can see an improvement. However, when it comes to an understanding of karate spirit I feel little more than a toddler. Maybe in 20 years or so I may have the knowledge to give Freestyler my thoughts, but for now there are many more qualified to address these issues and it would be disrespectful of me to offer my opinions ahead of theirs...

 

... and, looking through the posts isn't it obvious through the reading who does (and doesn't) deserve respect? Those who offer their words, altruistically, as part of the process and those who feel they have something to gain or prove by their participation.

 

Without analysing the nuts and bolts of kata and technique, I can only say that the ultimate form of self defence is to be as a Karateka. The Masters, Teachers and Students I respect are often those that have never needed to use karate outside the dojo. The confidence they exude is a far greater deterrent.

 

On the lighter side - if I ever meet Red J I hope to be able to demonstrate a new self defensive technique I have been wasting my time on involving those inspiring push-ups that we all love. Final strategy may be some years off though!

[brickman]

I have been in karate for about 13 years....I have had to use it a couple times. Believe it or not I had to break up a fight at a prison. It got ugly, but the final stance I was in was a "horse" stance. The guy I had a hold of was on the floor at my feet. I used a lot of what my sensei has shown me through the years to get out of a very rough situation. I believe as some have mentioned, there are men and women who claim to know much about karate and couldnt beat their way out of a wet paper bag. However, I am very confident that all the basics I have practiced have practical use....and many of those uses have been shown to me as I have progressed through the ranks. If a sensei cannot explain why basics are used.....or a karateka for that matter, it is not the style's fault. I do agree that many basics have no true use...but they do condition the muscles used in fighting.

[Kirves]

Think of a piece of string that represents your habits. Everytime you perform something, you wrap a piece of string around it. After doing this hundreds of time, it'll become quite strong & very hard to break!

 

I agree.

The basics - when going through the basics I notice they seem to be done slow, medium paced and then fast! I think this is fine when you've developed your technique, but for beginners who are just starting out, they need to focus on getting the technique right first, before executing it as fast as possible. Hence, a lot of karate practioners have poor technique from repeatedly doing techniques poorly.

 

First of all, the only way you'll ever get fast and explosive is to train it that way. You said it yourself: old habits are hard to break. Train only slow at first and stay slow in the future. Also, if they do it like you said: first slow, then medium, then high speed - that means two thirds were done in perfect form, right? Then one third was working on trying to transfer the form to speed.

The placement of the hands at the hips - this creates a bad habit as well. A lot of people adopt this when sparring. After placing your hands on your hips thousands of times after performing a punch, what makes you think you're going to keep them up in a real fight ?

 

Hmmm... Where do you train? The only time we pull our hand to the hip is when we are pulling something. That's why you draw the hand to the hip, right? Or are you a student of some McDojo, where you aren't actually taught how the basics are applied? You are not supposed to pull an empty hand to your hip. At least not in the schools I've been to.

The stances - some of the stances can supposedly be adopted to provide a solid stance, so your opponent can't move you. Are you seriously going to adopt one of these in a fight ? If someone punches/kicks you in the head, it'd actually work better for them since you've got nowhere to move your head and lessen the impact of the strike.

 

Again... There is a time and place for every technique. You are not supposed to spar while standing rigidly in a solid stance, why would you do that? Just as you cannot do a fireman's throw while standing on the ball of a single foot (as when kicking certain kicks), you cannot kick certain kicks while standing in a powerful stance. A time and place for everything, remember.

 

I smell McDojo...