Martial art limitations

[Alan Armstrong]

What is real martial arts for you?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vHqo8uotq0s

[sensei8]

What is real martial arts for you?

What is fake??

What's limited and what's not limited??

Opinions on either will vary just as the winds vary!!

Perception is reality to THAT person alone!!

Judgements as to what is real/fake are the property of the individual; not all Martial Artists will propose the same across the board, both as a group, as well as an individual.

I've my own perception(s) as to what is/isn't real/fake MA, and what's limited and what's not limited, and if I might, I'd rather keep that to myself as to not cause ill will in my perception(s).

[Alan Armstrong]

The reason for starting this topic was due to the recent controversial fight between a MMA fighter and a Tai Chi practitioner, in China.

The MMA guy ground and pounded the Tai Chi opponent in less than 10 seconds.

This match has caused great anger and controversy in the Chinese martial art community.

The MMA guy claims on a TV interview that Chinese martial arts is mostly fake and Japanese martial artists are better for fighting with.

Also that there is alot of fake martial art matches, that are fixed between foreigners in favor of Chinese fighters.

The MMA fighter wants to expose the fake (traditional) martial artists in China at the same time promote (contemporary) MMA.

[sensei8]

The reason for starting this topic was due to the recent controversial fight between a MMA fighter and a Tai Chi practitioner, in China.

The MMA guy ground and pounded the Tai Chi opponent in less than 10 seconds.

This match has caused great anger and controversy in the Chinese martial art community.

The MMA guy claims on a TV interview that Chinese martial arts is mostly fake and Japanese martial artists are better for fighting with.

Also that there is alot of fake martial art matches, that are fixed between foreigners in favor of Chinese fighters.

The MMA fighter wants to expose the fake (traditional) martial artists in China at the same time promote (contemporary) MMA.

If I might suggest the following...

Perhaps the Tai Chi practitioner wasn't the best representative of Tai Chi, therefore, the MMA practitioner dominated. Having said that, neither of the styles, MMA and Tai Chi, in this encounter walk away with black-eyes!! Why?

The styles are solid!! It's the practitioner that's not solid; the fault belongs to the practitioner, and not the style, imho.

That MMA's practitioner's assumption and/or believe that Chinese martial arts is fake, while Japanese martial arts isn't, is, imho, that MMA's practitioner's opinion. While I respect his/her opinion, I don't subscribe to it.

The MMA fighter wanting to derail MAists in China in the hopes of promoting MMA, to me, seems that his/her MA training would best serve the MMA practitioner to improve his/her betterment, imho!!

Someone's always better than you, even if it's just for the moment!!

[Alan Armstrong]

When I took Tai Chi, my sifu was not interested in teaching me how to fight.

He told me that if you want to hurt people buy a gun.

I took Tai Chi to find the more profound aspects of Chinese martial arts, I'm wasn't disappointed on what I had found.

A person that is seriously practicing Tai Chi to sustain or improve their health isn't going to throw it away on a fight with a MMA'ist so easily.

Agree with you sensei8, it is the practioners to blame and not the style.

[singularity6]

For me, martial arts is not just about combat and self defense (those are actually secondary or tertiary for me.) It's a way of life, and being a better person through discipline, your actions and your thoughts.

[tallgeese]

The debate must be framed. These definitions depend on the intent of the practitioner and school. Singularity brings up a great point, some people do not care about self defense, fighting, or combat, and these are not the focus of being on the mats for them. That's perfectly valid. So before we look at what's real and fake define what each individual is looking for.

I think a bulk of these arguments would go away if not only practitioners did this, but schools were better about it.

This disconnect can be caused by a couple of things. First, school owners might not honestly understand fully what their art is best suited for, having focused on theory rather than testing. Second, it might be fraudulently sold for memberships. Last, despite various claims it's possible that a school isn't that good at what they should be good at.

On the student side, they must really understand what they want to do and go to a school that meets their needs. This failure to assess, and continually assess, goals leads to all kinds of problems.

I have kids come in all the time and want to be fighters. I'm a gi-focused BJJ school that has a Muay Thai program on the side and a PTK class on Saturdays. Not an MMA school. I send them to my competitor. He's got a great MMA program. No good will come from this guy being unhappy with me or his lack of progress to his goals.

For this instance, lets assume the school in questions wants to be combat focused, because why would one take a challenge like this anyway if they weren't? Some one challenges a personal development guy to a fight the answer should be "no, I don't do this for that."

In the first couple of cases, an eye opener like this can be useful. Either the practioner has misunderstood the reality of combat or he's lying. In both cases, this will reveal the truth of the matter.

We always talk about the fighter and not the art. There's validity in that, but it's only part of the equation. A larger part is training methodology. This is where many trad arts fail in comparison to competitive based combat arts like MMA. There is little substitute for the grind of conditioning that combat athletes go through. Very few SD focused guys can hang in the aspect with properly conditioned athletes. This should be addressed in training and, again, understanding this is important. Getting in the ring with an athlete used to physical exertion and stress management from live training will reveal weaknesses in methods.

Often, I watch these video and see that it's really a lack of training methods that sinks a lot of trad arts when it comes to these challenges. A failure to be live, under the threat of contact in a stressful setting really shows. Often it's not the art, or even the practitioner, but how they train that sinks them in their efforts.

Something for all of us to consider.

[bushido_man96]

Well said, Alex, and I agree, especially when it comes to the training methods. Someone who has the time to devote to that kind of training is going to probably have the advantage over someone who is more of a hobbyist, or has a schedule that is more restrictive when it comes to training time.

[sensei8]

Well said, Alex, and I agree, especially when it comes to the training methods. Someone who has the time to devote to that kind of training is going to probably have the advantage over someone who is more of a hobbyist, or has a schedule that is more restrictive when it comes to training time.

Solid posts, Alex and Brian; I wholeheartedly concur with both of you!!

[TJ-Jitsu]

Agreed with Alex- if I could articulate it my way though.

"Mma" isn't a style- it's a rule set. There is no "mma" style because you can fight however you want. What it really comes down to is how you train, the concept of resistance training. This in and of itself settles virtually all debates. This is also the reason why I'm so critical of rbsd styles and why they don't work. Provided you keep it real with resistance training you can call what you do whatever you want imo.

The next thing is the idea that some people will indeed be willfully ignorant and will not change their minds no matter the amount of evidence presented.

The person who actually spends time fighting will have a marked advantage over the person who pretends to fight- and that doesn't settle well with most people. Call it what you will, my concern is fighting so when we talk about martial arts that's what I mean. Being a spiritual person is of no concern to me