karate origin wiki

[MatsuShinshii]

What you say is true Spartacus. The Okinawans were influenced by many countries and thus their martial arts were as well.

What I know of the history of Okinawan martial arts is as follows; The Okinawans had their own indigenous arts which we know as Ti and Muto (if in Shuri) which most call Tegumi. They traded with the Siamese empire prior to China, Korea, etc. During this time and as you have already stated martial arts were part of the noble classes culture and as such Muay Boran and other fighting methods (most likely from Annan [Viet Nam] and Burma) were incorporated into the Okinawan's fighting methods. China played a huge role in both trade and cultural exchange. The Chinese sent emissaries to Okinawa and vice versa. We know based on what little documentation exists that Okinawan's like Matsumura traveled to and trained in Southern China and learned their arts. During this time Okinawa also traded with Tiawan, Korea and other countries and with the information we already know it is very plausible that the Okinawans exchanged culture and martial arts with these countries as well. You could say that Okinawa was a cultural sponge.

The Japanese also had some influence on the Okinawans and their fighting method. We know this because Matsumura trained with the Satsuma and learned the use of the sword (Kenjutsu) among other weapons and most likely their empty hand arts like Ju Jutsu.

The point I was making was that, yes, these cultures influenced what we call Karate but Karate can not be contributed to one or the other. This is because the Okinawans like Bruce Lee's famous quote took what was useful and incorporated it into their art. One can not contribute Karate as Chinese or Siamese or any other countries origin. It is uniquely Okinawan.

I was also pointing out that it most certainly can not be attributed to the Japanese unless you are talking about "Modern" Karate. It was brought to Japan and pretty much dumbed down to what you see today for two very distinct reasons. One the Japanese hated all things Chinese. Toudi (Karate) at the time had major influences from Quan Fa and this did not match the Japanese vision. Two the Japanese wanted everything to fit into a nice little package and Toudi at the time did not. It was taught differently from one teacher to another and there was no set consistent group of techniques from one style to another. It also was a combative art and did not fit into their ideal of Kendo, Iaido, Aikido, Judo, etc.

This is not to lay blame on the Japanese for the loss of combative applications. Itosu removed or disguised all combative application long before it was introduced to Japan. However the introduction changed the art further into what we now call Modern Karate or Karate Do.

Yes the art has been influenced heavily by the Chinese arts but one can not call it Chinese. To do so would be to ignore the original foundational arts of Ti, Muto and later the Siam influences among others. It is for all intents and purposes the first MMA. Cross training before it had a name.

You can whittle it down to the individual techniques and arts like, Muay Boran, Jiao Di (Shuai Jiao), Qin Na, Ti, Muto, Quan Fa, etc., that created it on the microscopic level and see that it can not be considered primarily one art or another. When you consider that all of these arts were merged into one you can only come to one conclusion... it's uniquely Okinawan.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The whole of karate is uniquely Okinawan so cannot be called anything else. What has been done by those who have studied and analyzed the content is a classification of the kata and techniques by their most likely origin.

This theory is explained in translations of the BuBishi as well as in Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan martial arts.

One general rule used to classify karate techniques is that closed hands(fists or knuckles) are Okinawan and open hands are Chinese. Another one is that the older a kata is the more Chinese influences it has. Examples from the Shorin styles include: kusanku, Chinto and Gojushiho.

This of course is a rather simplified classification because there are many technical aspects and principles of unclear origin in karate that cannot be clearly identified as Okinawan, Chinese or anything else.

[MatsuShinshii]

The whole of karate is uniquely Okinawan so cannot be called anything else. What has been done by those who have studied and analyzed the content is a classification of the kata and techniques by their most likely origin.

This theory is explained in translations of the BuBishi as well as in Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan martial arts.

One general rule used to classify karate techniques is that closed hands(fists or knuckles) are Okinawan and open hands are Chinese. Another one is that the older a kata is the more Chinese influences it has. Examples from the Shorin styles include: kusanku, Chinto and Gojushiho.

This of course is a rather simplified classification because there are many technical aspects and principles of unclear origin in karate that cannot be clearly identified as Okinawan, Chinese or anything else.

Interesting line of reasoning.

[pinklady6000]

there is no white crane techniques in karate. that wiki entry shoud be removed.

how to do that is a mystery, as they stubbonly refuse to remove anything that has been entered.

[singularity6]

there is no white crane techniques in karate. that wiki entry shoud be removed.

how to do that is a mystery, as they stubbonly refuse to remove anything that has been entered.

Any Wiki that's worth reading is usually fairly well moderated. If enough people pipe up, that usually helps errors get fixed. But since these are frequently edited by "non-experts," there can be errors.

[MatsuShinshii]

there is no white crane techniques in karate. that wiki entry shoud be removed.

how to do that is a mystery, as they stubbonly refuse to remove anything that has been entered.

Ok. Let me ask you how you prove your point. How do you know that Bai He Quan is not present within Karate? Can you prove it?

Better yet, let me step out of my own personal lineage line and bring up Gogenki. If you do not know this name he is a Chinese martial artist that came to Okinawa to teach Bai He Quan. One of his more famous students was Chojun Miyagi. Goju Ryu Kata have a plethora of Fujian White Crane techniques. Not only is there documentation of this but also pictures to boot. Hard to disprove that.

Please feel free to read about this man and about Miyagi and others. I am sure you ran across one of the many that claim that Fujian White Crane was not passed down to the founders of Toudi (Karate) but historical evidence proves them wrong. Do a little reading and please tell me what historical evidence you base your statements on.

I have researched the different crane quan and found evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that our Kata's do contain these techniques.

The proof most use is the fact that they do not have the flow of the original techniques. This however is not proof that it's not crane but rather proof that the Okinawans did as they have with most arts they picked up and made it fit their way of doing things. Looking at anything superficially is not proof. Take TKD or Tang Soo Do and compare it to Shotokan. The techniques are similar but do have differences. If this is the line of reasoning then TKD and TSD were not influenced by Karate and one could state contain no Karate techniques but history trumps this argument as it does with the White Crane argument. If this is the argument then you must say that NO chinese martial arts influenced Kata because on the surface very few techniques LOOK like the Quan Fa they came from.

An even better example is the Okinawan Bubishi. I recommend this as a source of reading. You might find it enlightening. You could also read the statements of many of the founders of Toudi (Karate).

I choose not to bring my own lineage into this so as not to be bias or to defend my personal style. Rather I would prove my point by utilizing other styles/arts histories to prove my point. Once you provide proof I would be more than happy to provide proof to the contrary.

Please provide proof of your statement that White Crane did not influence Karate and that there are no White Crane techniques in Kata. Please also disprove the many Kata that contain Bai He Quan (White Crane) techniques and applications. Please also disprove the fact that the applications mirror the Quan Fa they came from.

I am interested to hear your point of view and am interested from what, where and who you base your personal knowledge of this subject. Maybe my teachers and there teachers goingf back to the founder have been wrong all this time but you will have to provide proof of this. I look forward to your response.

[MatsuShinshii]

Pinklady,

I am not trying to be rude but after reading your styles I have no idea how someone that has not studied an art can make such an accusation about an art. What do Wrestling, Shinkicking and Jeet Kun Do have to do with Karate?

And I guess I'm going to have to be even more blunt and ask, "what in your experience has provided you with such an in-depth knowledge of an art you have not studied to be able to make such a firm statement as there is no white crane in Karate ?" Does any of the arts you have in your profile claim to have knowledge of Karate or about this very subject? If so what makes them experts in this field and give them enough personal knowledge via lineage or years of study and research to make such a claim?

Again I don't mean to come off as rude but I do not care for baseless claims from practitioners of other arts about an art they don't even study.

That would be akin to saying that Bruce Lee had no influence over JKD. It's stirring the pot is what it is.

If you can provide proof of your statements please do. If not please refrain from making statements about arts you don't even study.

My personal experience, just so you know, is over 35 years of study in Okinawan Toudi (Karate). I am not an expert nor do I hold all the mysteries of the art and do not claim to be all knowing but I can at least speak to the art and it's history based on my years of study and my personal research and that of my Shinshii and his.

[Spartacus Maximus]

It is of significant importance for martial arts history researchers to understand that there are several "crane styles". Most of these are or southern Chinese origin. There has been many comparative studies of these with certain Okinawan karate schools.

Notably styles of the Naha-te lineage. The founders of these, like their teachers before them were taught or influenced by Chinese experts. This is well documented and some of the most conclusive research on the subject in English is to be found in the books by Mark Bishop and Patrick McCarthy.

YouTube and other video media sites also have interesting demonstration of the obvious similarities between crane styles and Okinawan karate. As for specific kata or techniques influenced by or directly transmitted from Chinese crane styles; sanchin of goju ryu and Uechi ryu/ Pan gai noon and hakutsuru (literally: white crane) of Shorin ryu come to mind.

[MatsuShinshii]

It is of significant importance for martial arts history researchers to understand that there are several "crane styles". Most of these are or southern Chinese origin. There has been many comparative studies of these with certain Okinawan karate schools.

Notably styles of the Naha-te lineage. The founders of these, like their teachers before them were taught or influenced by Chinese experts. This is well documented and some of the most conclusive research on the subject in English is to be found in the books by Mark Bishop and Patrick McCarthy.

YouTube and other video media sites also have interesting demonstration of the obvious similarities between crane styles and Okinawan karate. As for specific kata or techniques influenced by or directly transmitted from Chinese crane styles; sanchin of goju ryu and Uechi ryu/ Pan gai noon and hakutsuru (literally: white crane) of Shorin ryu come to mind.

Spartacus,

You are correct. Most come from southern China and Taiwan. To add to your Kata; Sanseiru, Niseishi and Happoren.

For the sake of Historical correctness I would like to add that Sanchin may have come from white crane but it is also found in all of the major arts that influenced the Okinawan founders. However this does not detract from your statement in the least. This is only to point out that this particular Hsing(Kata) is present in other Quan Fa that was introduced and it is next to impossible to determine exactly which art it came from. Strictly from an accurate historical account.

I also agree, having studied an art that has it's roots in Bai He Quan that you can see the techniques within the Kata if you know what you are looking for and at. Unfortunately some historians put way to much emphasis on this, in that when reading about specific arts, it leads the reader to believe it was solely derived from that one art and this is not the case. In the case of most, if not all Okinawan arts, they were developed/influenced by many arts.

I believe this is the confusion that laymen have when trying to compare the arts in seeing the similarities. They look for them to be carbon copies and when not seeing exact carbon copies, almost as if they should be the same art, they claim that there is not Crane influence within the art.

Having studied and done my own research, I can state IMHO that our art is a culmination of many arts and once you understand the applications and then compare them to the arts that are to have influenced them, only then can you see exact similarities.

Looking at the surface of a Kata and not understanding that it is a mere container for the applications contained within, is where the laymen fail to see the techniques and the influence of the Quan Fa.

If one looks deep enough into the postures of the Chinese martial arts manuals, take the Bubishi for instance, one can see exact clones of the arts that they came from.

The difference is what happened to the original intent of most arts when it was Japanized and changed to mean what it does in most modern martial arts today. In this case I would agree... I can't see it either. But a lack of understanding does not detract from the truth.

White Crane techniques along with many other arts can be found still contained within the Kata if you know how to extract them. Some would call this Bunkai but I would call them the postures and the applications and techniques that they represent.

To say that an art was not influenced because it does not resemble another art is akin to saying that TKD or Tang Soo Do was not influenced by Shotokan because they were Koreanized.

Kata were created and added but the original Kata (although the names were changed, are still present. This is also true with Karate and the influences of Chinese MA. The Japanese loathed all things Chinese and did their level best to change the art to remove said influences but again, the underlying intent still remains even with the name changes and the intent changes.

If it quacks like a duck...