Black Belts Like Candy?

[LLLEARNER]

Did someone say candy?

I guess I will eat my yogurt instead.

[The Pred]

One can say that standards for everything has gone down, not just martial arts. Has anyone seen that 19th century 8th grade final exam that they have on line. I doubt most kids today would be able to do it.

[LLLEARNER]

That test is hard.

[Lupin1]

Honestly, I think the standards in the 70s-90s in the west were overly inflated. Black belt was never meant to be a master rank. It wasn't meant to take a decade of work. It wasn't meant to require thousands of pushups and situps and a three day boot camp-like test. Black belt is meant to signify you've completed the basic curriculum in your art and have a solid base to begin more advanced training.

The majority of karate in the west started with military men who were stationed in Asia from WWII through the 70s. Those men learned karate over there and achieved black belt (usually after about a year of training) and then brought it home and opened their own schools.

As most of them were just shodans when they opened their schools, shodan became seen as an elite rank (at the time, it was). The shodans were the masters, not because they were amazing and had trained for decades, but because there was just no one with more experience. They still only had an average a year and half of training when they came back to the US and opened their dojos.

Basically-- in the years since we've built black belt up in our minds to turn it in to something it was never meant to be. I don't see what's happening right now as "watering down black belt". I see it as black belt in the west going back to what it was meant to be and what it's always been in the east-- a rank signifying you've mastered the basic curriculum and are ready to move from beginner to advanced training.

Edit: At my school it takes about 4-5 years of training an hour twice a week for an adult to reach shodan. Children take about 4 years of training twice a week to reach junior black belt (equivalent to adult brown belt) and then another 3-4 years to reach shodan from there (longer if they started young). We don't require people to jump through hoops to earn their black belt. When they've learned the necessary curriculum, they get their belt. I think it's fair. It requires a decent amount of training without being too over the top.

[singularity6]

Just for giggles, let's use higher education as an analogy.

I did my undergraduate math work at The University of Michigan - Dearborn, and my graduate work at Wayne State University in Detroit. UM-D is affiliated with UM Ann Arbor, but the standards to get in and make it out are a bit lower (but by no means low!) Both universities are solid schools, with solid programs. But, like most universities, they try to hire folks who studied at schools that were above their caliber (the idea is simple... hire better people to make your institute better.)

The professors always complain about the caliber of students at the institutes they teach at. Some things we should consider are:

1) What were our motivations when we started down whichever path we started on?

2) What was our support system like? (i.e., supportive parents/family, quality of primary and secondary education, and in the case of martial arts, how was your PE program at your schools?)

3) How were you able to afford your program? Were the prices reasonable compared to income?

I could probably go on, but I think everyone will see my point. Some things were easier for me because my father went to college, but since I had to work to pay my way through school, well... that complicated things a bit.

I agree with Lupin1 - a black belt is supposed to signify the mastery of the basics. Some grad school professors complained that me and my classmates did not know graduate-level material coming into grad school (because they took graduate level classes as undergrads.) Thanks, Lupin1. That post was quite helpful!

[bushido_man96]

Honestly, I think the standards in the 70s-90s in the west were overly inflated. Black belt was never meant to be a master rank. It wasn't meant to take a decade of work. It wasn't meant to require thousands of pushups and situps and a three day boot camp-like test. Black belt is meant to signify you've completed the basic curriculum in your art and have a solid base to begin more advanced training.

The majority of karate in the west started with military men who were stationed in Asia from WWII through the 70s. Those men learned karate over there and achieved black belt (usually after about a year of training) and then brought it home and opened their own schools.

As most of them were just shodans when they opened their schools, shodan became seen as an elite rank (at the time, it was). The shodans were the masters, not because they were amazing and had trained for decades, but because there was just no one with more experience. They still only had an average a year and half of training when they came back to the US and opened their dojos.

Basically-- in the years since we've built black belt up in our minds to turn it in to something it was never meant to be. I don't see what's happening right now as "watering down black belt". I see it as black belt in the west going back to what it was meant to be and what it's always been in the east-- a rank signifying you've mastered the basic curriculum and are ready to move from beginner to advanced training.

Edit: At my school it takes about 4-5 years of training an hour twice a week for an adult to reach shodan. Children take about 4 years of training twice a week to reach junior black belt (equivalent to adult brown belt) and then another 3-4 years to reach shodan from there (longer if they started young). We don't require people to jump through hoops to earn their black belt. When they've learned the necessary curriculum, they get their belt. I think it's fair. It requires a decent amount of training without being too over the top.

I think you've nailed it here. That's a great breakdown.

[MatsuShinshii]

Honestly, I think the standards in the 70s-90s in the west were overly inflated. Black belt was never meant to be a master rank. It wasn't meant to take a decade of work. It wasn't meant to require thousands of pushups and situps and a three day boot camp-like test. Black belt is meant to signify you've completed the basic curriculum in your art and have a solid base to begin more advanced training.

To a point I agree and to a point I disagree.

It is not meant to be a master grade, that we absolutely agree upon. However it's not just a signification that you have learned the Mudansha requirements and are ready to learn the advanced requirements.

The grade signifies that you have not only learned but also have a very high proficiency. The problem with western society is it's about placating to the fast food generation. The thought that anything worth doing is worth doing right is superseded by speed to keep students motivated.

My rule is simple... if you can't demonstrate a high understanding of the foundational techniques and applications within the Mudansha grades and are unable to use said skills to defend yourself proficiently then you are not ready to test.

I understand your view point but I personally think it has gone way to far the other way. Practicing one hour, two times a week for one year? That's 104 hours of training. And the thought process is you have achieved a proficient enough understanding of the art to be graded to Shodan?

Let me put it in terms of a trade since the school analogy has been used. A typical apprenticeship takes 4 to 5 years. This is both schooling (typically 2 to 3 hours, 2 to 3 times a week for 6 months a year on average) and working 40 hours a week. That's 2176 hours a year and 8704 for 4 years. Now take the school analogy... 12 years of schooling before even going to college.

So it is logical in the minds of modern instructors that a student that only has 104 hours of hands on training is ready to grade to Shodan? Ok, let me play devils advocate and say that they train 5 days a week 2 hours a day for a total of 520 hours, is this enough?

And let me go one step further and say that kids today are much different than kids in the 70's to the 90's. You can not tell me that on average a kid today (40 hours of texting, social media and online games) is going to train outside of class on their own for enough hours to have not only a deep understanding of the foundation grades (Mudansha) but can also utilize the applications and techniques in less time than it takes to understand a trade or a profession to be trusted to know enough to be left alone to do the job.

No, the bar has been drastically dropped. You don't have to be at a master level to grade as a Shodan but you should surely have to be able to demonstrate a high understanding an be able to demonstrate the skills adequately enough to be able to defend yourself. Kids today as well as adults with no prior training can not meet this requirement. So why would a year be acceptable? Why would two years be acceptable?

The majority of karate in the west started with military men who were stationed in Asia from WWII through the 70s. Those men learned karate over there and achieved black belt (usually after about a year of training) and then brought it home and opened their own schools.

As most of them were just shodans when they opened their schools, shodan became seen as an elite rank (at the time, it was). The shodans were the masters, not because they were amazing and had trained for decades, but because there was just no one with more experience. They still only had an average a year and half of training when they came back to the US and opened their dojos.

Basically-- in the years since we've built black belt up in our minds to turn it in to something it was never meant to be. I don't see what's happening right now as "watering down black belt". I see it as black belt in the west going back to what it was meant to be and what it's always been in the east-- a rank signifying you've mastered the basic curriculum and are ready to move from beginner to advanced training.

This has some truth to it but again I believe a different generation and a different mindset. Mnay of my first teachers and even my Shinshii was Military that trained in Okinawa. Typically they did learn for 1-1/2" to 3 years. However they did not take classes for one hour twice a week as stated. My Shinshii told me that he traveled to the dojo four nights a week and typical classes were 2 to 3 hours. The students were responsible for training on their own and most, but not all, returned multiple times to Okinawa for additional training. The mindset was a bit different then. And yes they were military so their ways did spill over into their training and in some cases it was brutal to say the least. However because the standards were higher the quality of Karateka was much higher.

To say that it's just another stepping stone and that its just achieving passing the lower grades to get to learn the advanced stuff is an excuse IMHO. Its a reason for those that want to make it easier to do so to achieve the grade. It's each instructors/organizations right to set the time frame and requirements to Shodan so I will not say you or anyone else is wrong for doing so, but I will not say that we are returning to the way it was supposed to be because we are not. Those Shodan would wipe the floor with what passes today as Shodan.

You can say it's ok to grade to Shodan after a year or two of training but I can guarantee that the standards have gone done hill since then, Waaaaaay down hill.

Edit: At my school it takes about 4-5 years of training an hour twice a week for an adult to reach shodan. Children take about 4 years of training twice a week to reach junior black belt (equivalent to adult brown belt) and then another 3-4 years to reach shodan from there (longer if they started young). We don't require people to jump through hoops to earn their black belt. When they've learned the necessary curriculum, they get their belt. I think it's fair. It requires a decent amount of training without being too over the top.

It is fair. IMHO there is nothing wrong with enforcing requirements and not allowing students to progress before they know and can demonstrate them. 4 to 5 years is a heck of a lot better than most modern schools that grade after one, two or even three years.

You'll think that our requirements are excessive and maybe they are but they work for us at 5 to 7 years.

My point is we live in a time where, as Sensei8 pointed out, money is the overriding factor. Kids that are used to not working for and earning something (every kid gets a trophy and we don't keep score because it's not fair to the losers) lose interest fast if they do not advance and this translates to the loss of students and the loss of income. In the 70's and 90's most, not all, instructors taught for free or for a pittance. They did not have mega dojo's and the main intent was not to get rich but to pass on the art. This translated into students training hard to earn the instructors respect and to be found worth training and worthy of the instructors time. Today most, not all, instructors kowtow down to their students and reduce the time to grade and the requirements in order to appease the fast food, gotta have it now mentality of this generation.

Absolutely a degradation of the art and absolutely a reduction in what is required to achieve the grade. And thus an overall degradation of the meaning of the grade. Was there a time where it was put on a pedestal and thought of as more than what it should have been? Sure, I'll agree. But is it even a glimmer of what it was now? Nope!

Just my two cents.

[Alan Armstrong]

I was lead to believe that for every hour instruction in the Dojo, 3 or 4 hours should be spent practicing outside of the Dojo.

In Chinese martial arts, 50% physical practice and 50% theory.

In the West it seems that there is a greater emphasis put on the physical aspects of martial arts than the theory, whereas with Chinese martial arts the opposite is true.

Perhaps this black belt thing is more important to the younger generation but personally being older it's an article of clothing.

A black belt level that is sport trained compared to reality based are not equal; then taking in to consideration the talent or capabilities of the wearer, then the amount of time and effort spent; not all black belts are equal!

[MatsuShinshii]

I was lead to believe that for every hour instruction in the Dojo, 3 or 4 hours should be spent practicing outside of the Dojo.

In Chinese martial arts, 50% physical practice and 50% theory.

In the West it seems that there is a greater emphasis put on the physical aspects of martial arts than the theory, whereas with Chinese martial arts the opposite is true.

Perhaps this black belt thing is more important to the younger generation but personally being older it's an article of clothing.

A black belt level that is sport trained compared to reality based are not equal; then taking in to consideration the talent or capabilities of the wearer, then the amount of time and effort spent; not all black belts are equal!

Could not agree more with your statement that not all are equal.

I also agree with the premise that sport compared to combat effective are not equal as well.

Can you clarify your definition of theory when applying it to the study of Okinawan MA as compared to Chinese MA.

To clarify only for my arts practices - Physical is a major portion of our art during the Mudansha and early Yudansha grades. However creative thought is also a major portion of the art. We guide but the student must learn through self discovery. This means proof testing what they have learned and applying it in real situations. Critical thinking and analyzing the applications within the Kata and gaining a greater understanding of them, learning to apply them and more importantly identifying what works and what doesn't for and individual is a huge component of the art. Self research and understanding not only the history but where the art came from and what it came from gives the student a deeper understanding of the meaning of the applications and how to better apply them. So the brain is engaged.

In our youth the body is 70% and the brain is 30%. As we grow older this reverses when we realize that technique and knowledge can over come without utilizing our full strength/speed. Economy of motion. Why expend more effort than is necessary?

This is of course human nature. Papa bull and baby bull theory. * If you don't know it I can't explain it here.

I also agree with your premise that it's just an article of clothing. The belt does not make the man, the man makes the belt. If you remove your belt are you not still the same grade?

I know I sounded a little David Carradine in Kung Fu there with that last question. Ancient Chinese wisdom and all.

[Alan Armstrong]

Clarifying Okinawa martial arts to Chinese; as requested.

Chinese martial art theory contains Lao Tzu, Confucianism, Yin/Yang theory, Bagua, Chinese medicine, energy and chi theory, Animal and insect bio mechanics and mannerisms, human bio mechanics, I-Ching, the elements of water, wind, metal, wood, mountains, earth and heaven..