What is real?

[MatsuShinshii]

I have stated many times that Bunkai is not addressed in most modern day Dojo's and if they do, more times than not, it is the most basic form or a made up series of applications that does not fit the Kata.

Why do I bring this up? Well I have been doing a bit of research on a few of the arts that contributed to the creation of Toudi (Karate), my art in particular, and came across some Youtube videos that, to keep it kid friendly, made me scratch my head in disbelief with many words spoken aloud that can not be written here.

I ended up watching about 4 hours of, not to be named, high ranked Karateka explaining and demonstrating Bunkai for Kata that I have studied for over three decades. And all I can say is "basic", stolen from other arts" and "totally made up and doesn't come close to the actual application".

During my time watching video's, which was not my original purpose or mission starting out, I did see many teaching real Bunkai as well. I actually ended up watching other video's of theirs for other Kata's and found a few variations that I had not seen before so it was not all bad and I did benefit from some of the time watching. Of course I can not get that 3 hours of wasted time watching made up, more than not useless applications back.

I am sure some would say that it does not effect me so why should I care? You would be right, it doesn't effect me.

But it led me to a question; How does a new student figure out what is real and what is fake. Imagine that the students intent was to find effective means to defend themselves, or maybe they need effective applications due to their line of work (Cop/Military). In watching on line videos its not as easy if you do not already have a foundation to draw from. In class it may also be difficult for the unqualified to discern real from fake.

Below is my suggestions on how to spot real from fake;

First and foremost I would look at the intent of the school as an indicator. If the school stresses tournament Kumite and Kata and their only self defense is a separate class only given a few times a year, their Bunkai is probably fake or basic at best.

The second indication is if the school integrates the applications in the Kata into Kumite. If the Kata is also taught as two person drills and broken down into various applications against more than just one attacking method. The postures found through out the Kata (Most would call these stances or individual techniques) have more than one application and are not in any way limited to just one type of attack. If the teacher does not enforce the use of the applications and techniques found within the Kata in Kumite but instead reverts to long distance, bounding in and out strikes and high kicks, you can bet it's not meant for combat applications but rather tournament competition. If the Kumite doesn't match what is contained within the Kata the Bunkai is not going to be real 90% of the time and is most likely basic punch, kick, block at best.

Another indication would be if their throws, sweeps, take downs, and grappling is taken directly from the Judo hand book or they do not teach any Tegumi/Tuidi (grappling/seizing/locks/throws/etc.)at all. Yes some throws, sweeps, take downs are similar or even the same as Judo/Ju Jutsu/ Aikido but they are not called the same thing and most are not executed the same way. An example would be an outside reap (Osoto Gari in Judo) is executed several ways and the "pushing" method is to the neck in the form of a grip/crush/choke, face in the form of shoving the nose back, etc. or as a strike while holding the striking arm of the attacker. Yes the technique is similar and some would say almost exact but the methodology and execution is quite different. This is because it was meant to cause harm and to end the fight where as throws in arts like Judo are to win points. The takedowns/throws in Toudi are more forceful and drive the opponent to land on their head vs. their back as is done in Judo and other competitive grappling arts.

Yet another and most obvious way is does it fit. If you have to stretch to see that this technique or that technique is this posture/application in the Kata and you have to really try to make it fit you can pretty much bet that its made up or was stolen from another art and incorporated.

Lastly, is the Bunkai taught in a progressive sequence following the sequence of the Kata? If this is the only way it is taught you are not being taught the real Bunkai. Each posture/application can be utilized with any other posture/application from not only the same Kata but of any other Kata. Conversely each posture is a stand alone application(s). Each application represents several answers to a multitude of attack scenarios. And yes the Bunkai is also taught within the Kata's sequence, in fact many two person drills are based on this. However if this is all that is taught you are only learning part of the whole.

How would you tell a new student how to spot real from fake?

Note: Maybe I should not use the terms real or fake because it may offend the sport Karateka here. I think a better way to describe it would be self defense/combat based Karate vs. sport/competition based Karate.

It occurred to me that sport/competition is not fake, it is definitely real, the Bunkai that some teach is what I would consider fake. Probably not much better but hey, I'm an old dog and set in my ways and I am too tired to learn new tricks.

[LLLEARNER]

Would it be appropriate here to name names? I have been watching videos occasionally. I consider myself a beginner/novice. I have also used videos to work on my kata to get correct sequences.

[sensei8]

How does a new student figure out what is real and what is fake.

For the moment, let me just say this...

Perception is real to that individual, no matter if it is of if it isn't...especially with new students; student that come to learn without any preconceived notions!!

Applications that preach a block as nothing else but a block because it's a block, says the CI to the new student.

Knowledge and experience allows one to change their initial perception!! Nonetheless, time is necessary to learn!!

[MatsuShinshii]

Would it be appropriate here to name names? I have been watching videos occasionally. I consider myself a beginner/novice. I have also used videos to work on my kata to get correct sequences.

I do not wish to bash someone I do not know so therefore I will refrain from divulging names.

I am sure if you watch enough of these ""bunkai"" video's you will figure it out for yourself.

Funny thing is I was actually looking up Bai He Quan applications and Lohan Quan applications when I discovered a multitude of Bunkai for many of the Kata that I train in. Curiosity killed the cat so to speak and four hours later I feel dumber for it.

[MatsuShinshii]

How does a new student figure out what is real and what is fake.

For the moment, let me just say this...

Perception is real to that individual, no matter if it is of if it isn't...especially with new students; student that come to learn without any preconceived notions!!

That is a very nice way to protect the feelings of those that do not have the first clue. I can appreciate the sentiment.

Applications that preach a block as nothing else but a block because it's a block, says the CI to the new student.

Well don't I feel dumb. I forgot the most blatant way you can tell if they are basic, follow the Kata, Bunkai. Well color me stuuupid.

Knowledge and experience allows one to change their initial perception!! Nonetheless, time is necessary to learn!!

All too true. The first time I was taught the "real" Bunkai my mind was in disbelief. My first Sensei (and I can not say a cross thing about him, he is a very good MAist) taught the most basic Bunkai probably because the applications were lost or discarded over time. Most likely to the Japanization of the art. However once I was shown the actual application I went from having a mild interest in Kata to not being able to get enough of it.

IMHO you could literally spend a life time studying the applications of the Kata. The possibilities and combinations are limitless.

[LLLEARNER]

Would it be appropriate here to name names? I have been watching videos occasionally. I consider myself a beginner/novice. I have also used videos to work on my kata to get correct sequences.

I do not wish to bash someone I do not know so therefore I will refrain from divulging names.

I am sure if you watch enough of these ""bunkai"" video's you will figure it out for yourself.

Funny thing is I was actually looking up Bai He Quan applications and Lohan Quan applications when I discovered a multitude of Bunkai for many of the Kata that I train in. Curiosity killed the cat so to speak and four hours later I feel dumber for it.

I know how much of a time suck YouTube can be. I have lost hours on Honest Trailers and How it Should have Ended from time to time.

[MatsuShinshii]

Would it be appropriate here to name names? I have been watching videos occasionally. I consider myself a beginner/novice. I have also used videos to work on my kata to get correct sequences.

The thing you need to understand about the applications (Bunkai) that will direct you to whether it is combat/self defense based or not is the ugly truth most MAist's try to avoid or do not want to admit. All of the applications in the Kata are meant to end the conflict quickly. You have to understand that it was not invented as a means to keep in shape or as a way to get in touch with your inner-self or even to relieve stress or promote world peace. These are by products of the way it is taught not the main reason for it's existence.

It was developed for combat pure and simple. If a application would not end the fight or at least have the potential to end the fight it is most likely not real in terms of self defense/combat effectiveness.

You could possibly be watching the real application but if the instructor is not teaching it with the exact target it is not effective.

The whole one strike one kill mentality has gone a little too far for me in most explanations of the meaning of the phrase, however this is the concept. To end the fight as quickly, violently (I'm sure I get flack for this) and as efficiently as possible so you can walk away with minimal or no damage. The concept is to disable, hurt, submit, maim or kill as a last resort in order to avoid possible death yourself. When two adults fight it is not a scrap in the school yard. In most scenario's someone is going to the hospital or the morgue even if it was not the intention of the fighters. Toudi (Karate) was created to end the conflict as quickly as possible by any means necessary. Modern Karate instructors cringe at this mere premise because in their minds it taints the concept of "DO", however one must remember than it was created by the Okinawan's as a combative system of self defense not as a peaceful method as the Japanese changed it to.

The real Bunkai contains the blue prints to Chibudi (Kyusho or vital point striking), Tuidi (Torite, Tuite or Seizing, locks, chokes, grappling, etc.), Tegumi (Throws, sweeps, takedowns, etc.), Tai Sabaki (Body Shifting and weight distribution) and all of the individual techniques most call Kihon (Basic Techniques). It doesn't just teach you a self defense scenario but the proper way to strike, where to strike, execution of throws, joint locks, traps, sweeps, body weight distribution, power generations, etc. etc. etc.

An example is Gedan Barai. Most would think this is a block to defend against a kick. It is/could be, but one of the actual applications is a throw.

Many practice and teach the chest as the target for Nukite Zuki. It can be and there are many vital targets on the chest but again one of the applications is a take down. Another is striking to the throat and yes another is striking to ST16 or ST18 or even SP12 in the chest and abdomen area.

Another thing to consider is if it teaches you to throw like a Judoka it may be the correct form but the methodology is incorrect. Obviously for instruction sake you would not dump someone on their head but within the instruction an explanation of the intent should supplement the action.

If you are utilizing Youtube video's to learn the applications (and I can sympathize as I am looking outside my art yet again for greater understanding of the applications) ask yourself, "would this have the potential to end the fight"? If not you are probably watching basic interpretation of the application.

This does not mean it is fake it just means that it is not effective or what was intended. Having said this I will make this clarification that an application has many meanings. If you couple this with Bunseki (essentially were the student analyzes the application and envisions an attack scenario and then, for lack of a better word, "invents his/her answer to the attack utilizing the knowledge of the application and what it "could" represent. This is a little more advanced and comes latter after the student has a very proficient understanding of the arts applications.

You may be watching this interpretation rather than the original application (Bunkai). Having said this some will not move on to the next progressive step which is OYO or applying it in a real scenario to see if it passes as effective. The word effective has different meanings depending on who you talk to. For me it means it has the potential to end the fight.

There is nothing wrong with Bunseki and Oyo. It is a great tool get the light bulb to go off in a student. Inventive thought and problem solving is within the DNA of all martial artists. This gets you to look outside of your comfort zone and develop answers to different attack scenarios by utilizing what is known of the applications contained within the Kata.

If you think about it in basic terms the average Kata has 30 to 50 postures (moves). Most are mirrored on both sides so that is an average of 20 applications per Kata. Lets say your art teaches 17 Kata. That would be 340 postures. Now lets say on "average" each of these represented 5 applications that would be 1700 applications. Now if you take the most basic understanding of the Bunkai (Face value strikes, kicks, blocks, etc.) that would double to 3400 applications. Now if you take each application and understand that they can be combined with other applications (I can;t count this high ) and then you add in Bunseki along with Oyo the possibilities are endless.

So why would anyone stop at the most basic explanation of the Bunkai. By understanding the real combat effective applications, understanding the most basic applications, understanding how to combine them and then you add in your own interpretations through study, the amount of tools you have to pull from is limitless. You essentially have an answer for almost any situation and a multitude of ways to deal with it.

If you utilize anything to decide for yourself what is real, make sure to ask if this would end the fight.

I hope this helps. Unfortunately I am strapped for time or I would have gone into greater detail and given more examples. I most likely would have paid attention to spelling and grammar as well but there you have it, a quick down and dirty explanation.

[Wastelander]

How would a new student tell real from fake? They won't, unless the "fake" is clearly fake from the perspective of the average person with common sense. The "no touch" stuff, for example. It takes experience to be able to see the other problems

[sensei8]

How would you tell a new student how to spot real from fake?

In short, being quite honest as I can be here....I don't!! I don't tell a new student how to spot real from fake or vice versa because they've not even the most minimum of an idea of what is real and/or fake. To a new student EVERYTHING looks one way or another, and that's where the CI earns their money. The new student will have to learn it for themselves with the guidance from their CI...over time!!

What is real?

What is fake? Hitting those answers right on the nail for a new student will be akin to me spotting a fake Mona Lisa or any masterpiece painting; I'd not even the slightest idea, even if it came up to me and introduced itself one way or another. I'd go..."Oh, ah, cool; that's what I thought", having no idea if it was or wasn't.

Only way I can ascertain if that Mona Lisa is real or fake is...drum roll please...through knowledge and experience achieved under the instructions of someone who's an expert in that field...over time!!

Our Dai-Soke was keen to always remind us...

"Go with your gut!! If it feels wrong, then it's more than likely, wrong. But you must experience it for yourself first before you can say for sure!!"

During our Oyo sessions, Dai-Soke wouldn't say "WRONG!!", instead he'd ask us..."Is that feel right or wrong to YOU!!??" Afterwards, he'd either congratulate us, however, if we were incorrect in our application(s), he'd demonstrate the many reasons of compromised act(s) we'd find ourselves in.

I always tell anyone on the floor with me, if you want to learn Shindokan's brand of Tuite, you must experience it first hand. Actions do speak louder than words!!

Experience!!

Knowledge!!

What works for me, might not work for you. Why?? Experience and knowledge, and for this to be true, I have to have learned through the trials and tribulations of endless research, but for myself, first, before I can teach anything to anyone!!

Otherwise, I'm just flapping my gums to hear myself because my voice is so soothing to me; I'd have no basis of comparison or reference...I'd be the blah blah blah blah master of duh!!

[sensei8]

Would it be appropriate here to name names? I have been watching videos occasionally. I consider myself a beginner/novice. I have also used videos to work on my kata to get correct sequences.

The whole one strike one kill mentality has gone a little too far for me in most explanations of the meaning of the phrase, however this is the concept. To end the fight as quickly, violently (I'm sure I get flack for this) and as efficiently as possible so you can walk away with minimal or no damage. The concept is to disable, hurt, submit, maim or kill as a last resort in order to avoid possible death yourself. When two adults fight it is not a scrap in the school yard. In most scenario's someone is going to the hospital or the morgue even if it was not the intention of the fighters. Toudi (Karate) was created to end the conflict as quickly as possible by any means necessary. Modern Karate instructors cringe at this mere premise because in their minds it taints the concept of "DO", however one must remember than it was created by the Okinawan's as a combative system of self defense not as a peaceful method as the Japanese changed it to.

For us, Ikken Hissatsu, beyond its acceptable definition, means to put EVERYTHING into whatever it is that you're doing at that very moment, as often as it is required.

100% is put into EVERYTHING I do as a human being, as well as a MAist!! Not 99.99%...not 80%...not 50%...NOTHING less than 100% at all times with resolve, and without any ambiguity whatsoever!! Otherwise, if you're not going to put 100% into that very moment, then don't do anything.

Either show up or stay home!! But, when you do show up, you better be willing to give your everything all of the time, and if not, stay home and bake a cake or something. But a MAist must be willing to expend 100% in everything at that very moment every time.

Everyone gives 100% one way or another...in effort or in quitting...we were taught to live by Ikken Hissatsu in everything, not just when it comes to the MA. You want to kill with one blow?? That's fine, kill with one blow when you're at your job...kill the yard work with one blow this weekend...kill the vacation with one blow...kill the bills with one blow this weekend...kill the movie with one blow tonight...kill the job interview today with one blow...kill the wife/husband with one blow by giving her/him the day off...so on and so forth.

Anything worth doing is worth doing right, so, kill it with one blow!!

Are you a 100%er or a 0%er??!!??