Karate Shotokan or Kyokushinkai

[sensei8]

When you have a chance, or if there are schools in your area, try Ashihara Karate or Enshin Karate. I am sure that both of them will allow you entry for an introductory class.

Please bear in mind that NIKO Ashihara is run by Hideyuki Ashihara son. At the time of Hideyuki Ashihara's death, his son was a green belt and 2 years later he became 10th dan and created his own organization.

Look for AKI, or Ashihara Karate International.

To the bold type above...

Wait...wait...wait...wait...wait a minute....I'm startled by this because I've a hard time wrapping my head around how a recognized green belt can become Judan in a span of 2 years. And this is an acceptable tenure from his Student Body and his fellow peers?!?!? Creating his own organization allow him to be GRANTED a Judan?!?

Yeah, I'd bear that in mind, if it was me.

I can understand his son being the heir to the organization. There's nothing wrong with "passing on the family business" to your own son. And perhaps their bylaws state the head of the organization must be 10th dan.

Now getting that out of the way...

There's far better choices that could've been made. He could've been a business leader/CEO type without being the head instructor. He could've been the one calling the administrative shots without being the one who's calling the "on the dojo floor" shots. For example, he could've been the one who's responsible to make sure the organization is heading in the direction his father envisioned. He could've been the one who's making sure the Ashihara brand is being represented according to his father's legacy. He could've oversaw the opening of dojos, appointments of CIs, etc. all the while appointing a chief instructor of the organization as a whole and remaining a student of his green belt rank on the floor. Yes, that's all easier said than done, and yes, he'd need people he can trust. But I'm sure they were enough high ranking students that someone would've been qualified to be the instructional successor while he was the administrative successor.

Probably overly simplistic and ideal. The real world always throws curveballs at you.

On point. If he appointed the highest ranking member at the time of his father's death, he could've at least learnt a lot under the auspices of such an individual. For all we know, maybe that is happening right now and I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is first appointing yourself, then learning the road.

He could've appointed an interim and studied his life under such until such a time comes that he is reappointed as head of Ashihara Karate. This is the noble thing to do.

For all we know, maybe this was the reason that Enshin was started.

Solid post; I wholeheartedly concur!! The noble thing is the thing to do, and the only thing to do, imho.

[JR 137]

When you have a chance, or if there are schools in your area, try Ashihara Karate or Enshin Karate. I am sure that both of them will allow you entry for an introductory class.

Please bear in mind that NIKO Ashihara is run by Hideyuki Ashihara son. At the time of Hideyuki Ashihara's death, his son was a green belt and 2 years later he became 10th dan and created his own organization.

Look for AKI, or Ashihara Karate International.

To the bold type above...

Wait...wait...wait...wait...wait a minute....I'm startled by this because I've a hard time wrapping my head around how a recognized green belt can become Judan in a span of 2 years. And this is an acceptable tenure from his Student Body and his fellow peers?!?!? Creating his own organization allow him to be GRANTED a Judan?!?

Yeah, I'd bear that in mind, if it was me.

I can understand his son being the heir to the organization. There's nothing wrong with "passing on the family business" to your own son. And perhaps their bylaws state the head of the organization must be 10th dan.

Now getting that out of the way...

There's far better choices that could've been made. He could've been a business leader/CEO type without being the head instructor. He could've been the one calling the administrative shots without being the one who's calling the "on the dojo floor" shots. For example, he could've been the one who's responsible to make sure the organization is heading in the direction his father envisioned. He could've been the one who's making sure the Ashihara brand is being represented according to his father's legacy. He could've oversaw the opening of dojos, appointments of CIs, etc. all the while appointing a chief instructor of the organization as a whole and remaining a student of his green belt rank on the floor. Yes, that's all easier said than done, and yes, he'd need people he can trust. But I'm sure they were enough high ranking students that someone would've been qualified to be the instructional successor while he was the administrative successor.

Probably overly simplistic and ideal. The real world always throws curveballs at you.

To the bold type above...

There's something very familiar about that for me!! :shudders:

Being the head of the organization is one thing, but, for me, going from green belt to Judan in 2 years is another thing, imho!! He could've just been the head of their governing body without assuming a rank he's not worthy of. Yes, I did say "not worthy of" because a green belt isn't worthy of Judan in just 2 years. Be the Kaicho [President] of that governing body as a green belt, and earn up to, and including senior rank the hard and old fashioned way...blood...sweat...tears...fail...pass!!

Just why, nowadays, don't students of the MA want to EARN rank anymore??

The SKKA By-Laws STILL demand that the Kaicho be a Kudan, just by the proprietary fact of being Kaicho. HOWEVER, NO ONE CAN ASSUME THAT POSITION WITHOUT HAVING ALREADY EARNED A SENIOR DAN!!

I fought and fought and fought, for years against that By-Law; I felt then, and I feel that now, and I'll feel that in the future, that being promoted to Judan simply by appointment kills the integrity of rank. The more I fought against the Higher Hierarchy, the more I believed that what I was resisting was the right thing to do. Yet, they still attacked me...insisting...threatening...pleading...plotting...until my resolve finally weakened them. That's when I insisted that they had to TEST me for Kudan, and that I will never assume Kudan without being tested for it. Not just any test, but a test that would rival the seriousness of both Soke and Dai-Soke...and they did just that.

Then, and only then, did I accept the rank of Kudan once I passed their test!! Albeit, I had already earned my Hachidan many years before this, and this is what I'm trying to get at...I was much closer to Kudan by being an already Hachidan than a green belt being promoted to Judan!!

I'll NEVER EVER accept Judan because I'm not worthy of it, imho!! Soke and Dai-Soke, and as much as this pains me to say this, San Dai-Soke [iwao Takahashi], were worthy of Judan...but NOT ME!! Besides, the SKKA done away with the Sokeship at its reorganization many years ago!!

Ok...going back to my corner, sorry for the rant!!

I know there's something very familiar about that to you, as you were exactly who I had in mind when I stated that

And please don't take that the wrong way; I clearly remember you stating how much you protested it and demanded to be tested for it. And you were no green belt when you passed your kudan test.

If it was 2 years between green belt and judan for Ashihara's son, maybe he protested and fought against it too until he gave up and said "whatever" for the betterment of the organization? Just trying to play devil's advocate here. None of us will ever know what went on behind closed doors, nor should we, nor does it have any effect on us whatsoever.

[Dani_001]

When you have a chance, or if there are schools in your area, try Ashihara Karate or Enshin Karate. I am sure that both of them will allow you entry for an introductory class.

Please bear in mind that NIKO Ashihara is run by Hideyuki Ashihara son. At the time of Hideyuki Ashihara's death, his son was a green belt and 2 years later he became 10th dan and created his own organization.

Look for AKI, or Ashihara Karate International.

To the bold type above...

Wait...wait...wait...wait...wait a minute....I'm startled by this because I've a hard time wrapping my head around how a recognized green belt can become Judan in a span of 2 years. And this is an acceptable tenure from his Student Body and his fellow peers?!?!? Creating his own organization allow him to be GRANTED a Judan?!?

Yeah, I'd bear that in mind, if it was me.

I can understand his son being the heir to the organization. There's nothing wrong with "passing on the family business" to your own son. And perhaps their bylaws state the head of the organization must be 10th dan.

Now getting that out of the way...

There's far better choices that could've been made. He could've been a business leader/CEO type without being the head instructor. He could've been the one calling the administrative shots without being the one who's calling the "on the dojo floor" shots. For example, he could've been the one who's responsible to make sure the organization is heading in the direction his father envisioned. He could've been the one who's making sure the Ashihara brand is being represented according to his father's legacy. He could've oversaw the opening of dojos, appointments of CIs, etc. all the while appointing a chief instructor of the organization as a whole and remaining a student of his green belt rank on the floor. Yes, that's all easier said than done, and yes, he'd need people he can trust. But I'm sure they were enough high ranking students that someone would've been qualified to be the instructional successor while he was the administrative successor.

Probably overly simplistic and ideal. The real world always throws curveballs at you.

To the bold type above...

There's something very familiar about that for me!! :shudders:

Being the head of the organization is one thing, but, for me, going from green belt to Judan in 2 years is another thing, imho!! He could've just been the head of their governing body without assuming a rank he's not worthy of. Yes, I did say "not worthy of" because a green belt isn't worthy of Judan in just 2 years. Be the Kaicho [President] of that governing body as a green belt, and earn up to, and including senior rank the hard and old fashioned way...blood...sweat...tears...fail...pass!!

Just why, nowadays, don't students of the MA want to EARN rank anymore??

The SKKA By-Laws STILL demand that the Kaicho be a Kudan, just by the proprietary fact of being Kaicho. HOWEVER, NO ONE CAN ASSUME THAT POSITION WITHOUT HAVING ALREADY EARNED A SENIOR DAN!!

I fought and fought and fought, for years against that By-Law; I felt then, and I feel that now, and I'll feel that in the future, that being promoted to Judan simply by appointment kills the integrity of rank. The more I fought against the Higher Hierarchy, the more I believed that what I was resisting was the right thing to do. Yet, they still attacked me...insisting...threatening...pleading...plotting...until my resolve finally weakened them. That's when I insisted that they had to TEST me for Kudan, and that I will never assume Kudan without being tested for it. Not just any test, but a test that would rival the seriousness of both Soke and Dai-Soke...and they did just that.

Then, and only then, did I accept the rank of Kudan once I passed their test!! Albeit, I had already earned my Hachidan many years before this, and this is what I'm trying to get at...I was much closer to Kudan by being an already Hachidan than a green belt being promoted to Judan!!

I'll NEVER EVER accept Judan because I'm not worthy of it, imho!! Soke and Dai-Soke, and as much as this pains me to say this, San Dai-Soke [iwao Takahashi], were worthy of Judan...but NOT ME!! Besides, the SKKA done away with the Sokeship at its reorganization many years ago!!

Ok...going back to my corner, sorry for the rant!!

I know there's something very familiar about that to you, as you were exactly who I had in mind when I stated that

And please don't take that the wrong way; I clearly remember you stating how much you protested it and demanded to be tested for it. And you were no green belt when you passed your kudan test.

If it was 2 years between green belt and judan for Ashihara's son, maybe he protested and fought against it too until he gave up and said "whatever" for the betterment of the organization? Just trying to play devil's advocate here. None of us will ever know what went on behind closed doors, nor should we, nor does it have any effect on us whatsoever.

100%

[sensei8]

When you have a chance, or if there are schools in your area, try Ashihara Karate or Enshin Karate. I am sure that both of them will allow you entry for an introductory class.

Please bear in mind that NIKO Ashihara is run by Hideyuki Ashihara son. At the time of Hideyuki Ashihara's death, his son was a green belt and 2 years later he became 10th dan and created his own organization.

Look for AKI, or Ashihara Karate International.

To the bold type above...

Wait...wait...wait...wait...wait a minute....I'm startled by this because I've a hard time wrapping my head around how a recognized green belt can become Judan in a span of 2 years. And this is an acceptable tenure from his Student Body and his fellow peers?!?!? Creating his own organization allow him to be GRANTED a Judan?!?

Yeah, I'd bear that in mind, if it was me.

I can understand his son being the heir to the organization. There's nothing wrong with "passing on the family business" to your own son. And perhaps their bylaws state the head of the organization must be 10th dan.

Now getting that out of the way...

There's far better choices that could've been made. He could've been a business leader/CEO type without being the head instructor. He could've been the one calling the administrative shots without being the one who's calling the "on the dojo floor" shots. For example, he could've been the one who's responsible to make sure the organization is heading in the direction his father envisioned. He could've been the one who's making sure the Ashihara brand is being represented according to his father's legacy. He could've oversaw the opening of dojos, appointments of CIs, etc. all the while appointing a chief instructor of the organization as a whole and remaining a student of his green belt rank on the floor. Yes, that's all easier said than done, and yes, he'd need people he can trust. But I'm sure they were enough high ranking students that someone would've been qualified to be the instructional successor while he was the administrative successor.

Probably overly simplistic and ideal. The real world always throws curveballs at you.

To the bold type above...

There's something very familiar about that for me!! :shudders:

Being the head of the organization is one thing, but, for me, going from green belt to Judan in 2 years is another thing, imho!! He could've just been the head of their governing body without assuming a rank he's not worthy of. Yes, I did say "not worthy of" because a green belt isn't worthy of Judan in just 2 years. Be the Kaicho [President] of that governing body as a green belt, and earn up to, and including senior rank the hard and old fashioned way...blood...sweat...tears...fail...pass!!

Just why, nowadays, don't students of the MA want to EARN rank anymore??

The SKKA By-Laws STILL demand that the Kaicho be a Kudan, just by the proprietary fact of being Kaicho. HOWEVER, NO ONE CAN ASSUME THAT POSITION WITHOUT HAVING ALREADY EARNED A SENIOR DAN!!

I fought and fought and fought, for years against that By-Law; I felt then, and I feel that now, and I'll feel that in the future, that being promoted to Judan simply by appointment kills the integrity of rank. The more I fought against the Higher Hierarchy, the more I believed that what I was resisting was the right thing to do. Yet, they still attacked me...insisting...threatening...pleading...plotting...until my resolve finally weakened them. That's when I insisted that they had to TEST me for Kudan, and that I will never assume Kudan without being tested for it. Not just any test, but a test that would rival the seriousness of both Soke and Dai-Soke...and they did just that.

Then, and only then, did I accept the rank of Kudan once I passed their test!! Albeit, I had already earned my Hachidan many years before this, and this is what I'm trying to get at...I was much closer to Kudan by being an already Hachidan than a green belt being promoted to Judan!!

I'll NEVER EVER accept Judan because I'm not worthy of it, imho!! Soke and Dai-Soke, and as much as this pains me to say this, San Dai-Soke [iwao Takahashi], were worthy of Judan...but NOT ME!! Besides, the SKKA done away with the Sokeship at its reorganization many years ago!!

Ok...going back to my corner, sorry for the rant!!

I know there's something very familiar about that to you, as you were exactly who I had in mind when I stated that

And please don't take that the wrong way; I clearly remember you stating how much you protested it and demanded to be tested for it. And you were no green belt when you passed your kudan test.

If it was 2 years between green belt and judan for Ashihara's son, maybe he protested and fought against it too until he gave up and said "whatever" for the betterment of the organization? Just trying to play devil's advocate here. None of us will ever know what went on behind closed doors, nor should we, nor does it have any effect on us whatsoever.

To the bold type above...

That's could be the very thing, coming to thing about it. Now, having said that, I've watched a few YouTube videos about him, and I will say this...he appears to have earned some type Dan rank, but I remain slightly reserved, for now, because to know for sure, I'd have to share the floor with him, even if it were only of mere seconds.

If he was compelled to accept Judan under duress, then so be it, and as you've said, I've been there, and it's one of the most disrespectful things anyone can experience. In my case, I believe that the SKKA Higher Hierarchy completely lost sight of what's truly important, and by all means, rank isn't even on the map as what's truly important. Here I was the current Kaicho, I was there immediate supervisor, their boss, they reported to me, I was the head honcho, the buck stopped with me, yet, I was subjected to their authority, depending the situation.

I can empathize with his forced plight, if that's what it was.

[ahmad abou taleb]

In their competition formats both neglect strikes to the head, and body-to-body combat, which are very real dangers in self-defence. Usually; Kyokushin is the better choice for self-defence due to the full-contact tradition, and the intensity of training because of it. However, with more dojo moving towards kata application, and incorporating methods from kick-boxing and free-fighting; this is not the determining edge it once was.

If the Shotokan dojo provides sufficient conditioning, and application (bunkai training) then it can be effective self-defence. So check both dojo, and go with the one which has the better approach to self-defence. Drills which are for self-defence (not just traditional kumite), and kata application, as well as suitable conditioning methods for self-defence are what you should look for.

with all my respect to you ! just in order to give the full true information to our friends, so I wanna correct some wrong information you gave my friend!

First of all as an Kyokushin karate black belt(shodan 1dan) i advice you to choose the Kyokushin for it full contact, so it give you an advantage against other martial arts, for it's based on direct kick and punches to the body, in addition, it teaches you how to raise and moderate your endurance.

Secondly, I just wanna talk about the competition parts! In both karate styles competition, we use the scoring system which is divided into 3 types of grades(yuko 1p, I'll Waza-ari 2p, and ippon 3p) I'll explain in detail the difference, and how to score. starting by Kyokushin it's prohibited to the player to punch the face so it will be considered as a foul, and we'll score point for every effective punch or kick, but kick in the head get scored as Ippon 3 points, and every throw to the ground is scored as a waza ari 2 points, and every effective punch is scored as yuko 1 point.

in the other hand in Shotokan competition, it's permitted to punch or kick the face but it's prohibited to kick any kind of low kicks.also ippon is awarded when u kick the opponent head or u throw him to the ground. waza-ari is awarded when u kick a chudan kick(middle kick). and finally, yuko is awarded when u punch the opponent body or face!

and i'll be posting a detailed article about Shotokan and another one about Kyokushin rules and competitions

[Wado Heretic]

To clarify what I meant by neglecting head-strikes; as you have stated, punches (or any hand-strikes) to the head are prohibited in knock-down rules. Also, only a single point is awarded for a successful hand strike to the head under current WKF rules, compared to the three awarded for a successful kick to the head or two for a successful kick to the body.

In free-fighting, kick-boxing, and self-defence effective hand-skills are fundamental for success. However, the above rules change the Mai-ai used; they encourage a distance where delivering high kicks is adopted, which is not reflective of actual self-defence. This is why I stated that they neglect head-strikes; boxing skills, and effective use of the hands to control distance, have proven to be necessary in sports such as MMA, but are also key to many effective self-defence strategies. When you cannot punch to the head, or the rule set makes it less advantageous to do so; even if you allow strikes to the head of some sort, you are still neglecting head strikes.

[Zukinatic]

What matters is a good instructors and what you are personally seeking to accomplish. I've trained in both and started with kyokushin first but did not commit to it because I had a bad instructor unfortunately. I was attracted to shotokan and appreciated the philosophy of the art. I still train to this day and haven't looked back.

[JR 137]

To clarify what I meant by neglecting head-strikes; as you have stated, punches (or any hand-strikes) to the head are prohibited in knock-down rules. Also, only a single point is awarded for a successful hand strike to the head under current WKF rules, compared to the three awarded for a successful kick to the head or two for a successful kick to the body.

In free-fighting, kick-boxing, and self-defence effective hand-skills are fundamental for success. However, the above rules change the Mai-ai used; they encourage a distance where delivering high kicks is adopted, which is not reflective of actual self-defence. This is why I stated that they neglect head-strikes; boxing skills, and effective use of the hands to control distance, have proven to be necessary in sports such as MMA, but are also key to many effective self-defence strategies. When you cannot punch to the head, or the rule set makes it less advantageous to do so; even if you allow strikes to the head of some sort, you are still neglecting head strikes.

I know your post was a while ago, but I just saw it now and wanted to address the 'lack of head punching' in Kyokushin to anyone reading this...

Just because head punching in prohibited in Kyokushin/knockdown competition doesn't mean they don't train and defend against it in the dojo. Oyama Dojo (before he officially named his style Kyokushin) had a lot of head punching. Shigeru Oyama said in an interview that the students would often wrap their hands in washcloths to prevent their knuckles from getting cut up by their partners' teeth. He was also saying the senior students told him to punch the jaw and under the chin (like an uppercut) to prevent cutting themselves.

A while after Mas Oyama officially established Kyokushin, he banned head contact with hands and elbows because too many students were getting injured and losing training time.

Kyokushin became heavily sport based for a period. A lot of the spreading of Kyokushin was through competition. People pay attention to competition and seeing how any MA works. Unfortunately, many schools placed preparing for knockdown competition very high on their priority list, and the stigma became apparent. A lot of high ranking and high profile Kyokushin practitioners left because of it. Some left simply because of it while others left indirectly because of it - many wanted to add head punching in various ways, claiming not punching to the head was unrealistic.

A lot of Kyokushin dojos have smartened up since. Many of them will use headgear and boxing gloves (or similar) and punch to the head during training. The ones that do this usually start this at or near brown belt level.

Some teachers did this all along. I've seen videos of Shigeru Oyama's students wearing head and hand gear and sparring with head punches. This was before he left Kyokushin in 1981. He continued this under World Oyama Karate.

Just because head punching isn't allowed in competition doesn't mean it's not a part of training. Knife-hand strikes to the throats and neck, kicks to the groin and knees, and so forth aren't allowed in any competition that I'm aware of. Does this mean that people who compete in those events never practice those techniques in any way? The only kumite competition we have in Seido Juku is point fighting. I can tell you for certain that that's not the only way we train. The only time we do that is if we're getting ready for our annual tournament. And it's only done during additional specific classes for people who want to compete. In my 2 and a half years in my dojo, I've never seen point fighting outside of the specific tournament classes once a week for about 6 weeks leading up to the tournament. To say the only sparring we do is point fighting because that's the only thing people see in competition is about as inaccurate as saying Kyokushin doesn't practice head punching because it's not seen in competition.

[Wado Heretic]

That was not my intended inference; I was speaking strictly in the context of the competition format. You fight how you train; if you train to be effective in your competition format, while neglecting other aspects of fighting; that is dangerous. However, I did not intend to infer that training is always directed by the competition format. I believed the context, that is the discussion was about competition fighting, sufficiently illustrated what the point I was making was about. That the competition formats, not the styles in of themselves, neglect head-strikes.

With that said, in the broader sense, it ultimately comes down to the dojo/gym/club as well. If it is competition focused, and spars only according to the competition rules exclusively; then the argument could be made that the training regime neglects head-strikes. That though, is not what I was talking about; I was talking about the competition rules. Plus, the above scenario is incredibly rare, if not in fact nonexistent.

Hopefully that further clarifies the meaning of my post.

[JR 137]

I quoted your post, but my intention was to make a generalized statement. I probably shouldn't have quoted your post specifically.

I've seen a ton of posts/blogs/etc. all over the internet stating Kyokushin doesn't teach head punching and defending it. I guess my post was intended to offer a counterpoint to the overwhelming notion.