What makes the elite, elite?

[sensei8]

JR, if I might ask you a question, just in case I've missed it somewhere here at KF...

What's your current rank??

[JR 137]

JR, if I might ask you a question, just in case I've missed it somewhere here at KF...

What's your current rank??

4th kyu. I was preparing for my nidan test during my first go-round in karate about 16 years ago (wow, time flies!).

[Alan Armstrong]

Hi there JR 137

Great question that you have put before us.

I believe I know the answer to your question but explaining it in to words is very difficult; but I will give it a go anyhow.

1.) Every time you move put yourself in a position of advantage and simultaneously put your opponent in a disadvantageous position.

This is somewhat like applying for a position in a company, you don't need to start at the bottom and work your way up, you could apply for a management position instead of sweeping the warehouse.

2.) Positioning yourself against the opponent so that you have a variety of opportunities to strike with your weapons be it with your fists, feet, elbows or knees. Whatever weapon is closer and or convenient to strike the opponent with, use it.

3.) Many MA styles understanding the centre line theory and how to get off and on line when needed. This aspect is an art in itself; if you don't know or understand this theory, your chances of winning a fight against someone that does, will diminish considerably.

This is strategy at it's finest, using flanking techniques and cutting angles; used extensively in Wing Chun. Boxers; the pros know about the T theory; this deals with foot positioning. Aikidoist use on and off line techniques to set up opponents for leverage in throwing techniques.

4.) Use physics to your advantage such as the power of leverage and the natural forces of nature and combine what you have learned with your body mechanics.

As martial artists we have many strategies at our disposal. Read about Sun Tzu and Myomoto Musashi; also learn to become a student of the forces of nature such as Water Fire Wood Earth Metal. I-Ching the book of changes is also worth becoming familiar with.

5.) Wayne Gretzky mentioned earlier. He was asked what is your secret go being a great hockey player, his answer was "Because I know the rules better than anyone else"

Also Mohammed Ali was mentioned earlier. He was asked, how many sit ups do you do in a day, his answer "I don't know, I only start counting them when it starts to hurt, because those are the ones that count"

People learn how to shine from the inside out and work very hard at developing it, such ad Gretzky and Ali, while others just wearing shiny clothes and wearing bling miss the point completely.

[sensei8]

JR, if I might ask you a question, just in case I've missed it somewhere here at KF...

What's your current rank??

4th kyu. I was preparing for my nidan test during my first go-round in karate about 16 years ago (wow, time flies!).

Thanks, JR. Then perhaps, her knowledge and experience VS your knowledge and experience as to why she's able to do with you what she does, even with her physical difficulties.

One last perhaps, if I might suggest it...you're telegraphing your intents to her!! That too, comes with the level of knowledge and experience for the both of you.

Perhaps!!

[tallgeese]

My opinion only, and there have been some other really good ones put out on this thread, when we look at elite we're looking at the pinnacle of the sport/ art. Even if competition isn't what we're considering, martial arts are by virtue of their physicality, an athletic endeavor. Different arenas and goals, to be certain, but still athletic.

So, what makes an elite athlete, even a non-traditional combat athlete?

First, we can't overlook the company of genetics. We can each strive to make ourselves as strong, fast, agile, and durable - hard to kill- as possible. With great effect and merit, but this doesn't change the fact that certain individuals win the lottery. This will make the rest of the list way more successful.

Next, you have to find exactly the art you want, exactly at the right time so you can start building skills early. It takes time to be good. This is based on luck, economy, location, and a host of things. I'd love, right now, to be looking at a World Championship in BJJ. Here's the thing, I grew up in an area where it was unheard of, in a time that it had yet to come to prominence in the States. I did Kempo based arts early in my martial arts career (which don't take me wrong, has served me well and I'm grateful for) and didn't tough BJJ sustainably until I was in my 30s. I was in a senior bracket before I even competed. I was in my 40s when I earned my BB. Now could I dedicate myself to competition and do well. Yes. To an extent. In a senior division. Against guys who've been black belts in the art since they were 30- see where this gets difficult. Now, this doesn't mean that cfompetinging now is a bad idea (I'm back in super fight mode in May) but it takes me out of the running for "elite."

So we've laid out some pre-requisites. There's still the details to attend to. So if I have the physical traits, and the opportunity, I still need the drive. Plenty of gifted athletes fall by the way side for other reasons- noble and complete waste of talent both. The desire and drive to get up everyday and train, push, work on ancillary skills, train some more, eat right.....it's brutal. Few people will do this work.

Let's say you get past all three of these hurdles, and the head is already getting thin. Now add in the need to be able to fund all of this. Training is expensive. Classes for your art, for years before you're good enough to warrant a pass on tuition, strength training, agility training, medical care (preventative and rehabilitative- training at this level is brutal on the body) all of this adds up. Early on you're not being paid to compete and if you're training to be elite and self defense you'll likely (and hopefully) NEVER use this skill set. Think about that for a second. So, while you're piling into a beat up Jeep to drive 16 hours to an amateur fight someones got to pay for gas, meals, motels, etc. to make those journeyman hours happen. Many people who would love to do all these things and have the drive simply don't have the money. So you get a job to pay for it, then you find you have less time to train, this slows your progress....

See how this all can spiral?

Elite is hard term to define, but it's certainly harder to attain if we're truly honest about it. I'd certainly never claim it. That said, it shouldn't keep the rest of us from trying, learning, doing the arts we love for the reasons we love them. That's far more important than defining ourselves or others by a definition that becomes meaningless with age and time.

[Alan Armstrong]

Yesterday I had a "Elite" martial artist (World MMA Champion) watching my class (Wing Chun) as he was in the next floor space twenty feet away, getting ready, prior to his workout.

Must admit I did turn up the heat in the class due to his presence. I didn't feel at all inadequate as I believe what I'm doing 100%

Actually it might have crossed his mind that what I was teaching is MMA.

He looked very impressed on the techniques that we were practicing. Similar to a Muay Thai neck control setup for knee strikes or throws.

The difference the way I teach this technique, is that I use a little Tai Chi Chuan (Chi Magic) relaxed but always in balance, sinking my postures using the natural gravitational pull of the Earth, wearing out the opponent very quickly, as he is using muscle and strenuous effort which is very tiring (for the opponent) and for me my concentration is focused on being dead weight similar to sleeping; hanging on to a tree branch.

(I train myself to be good at... OK rather exceptional at this technique due to my exercise routines)

Perhaps we are all elite in some way or another, depending on the moment and situation!

[MatsuShinshii]

Labels!

This is akin to the label Master. Many use these terms to describe someones skill level, knowledge level or just because they reach a specified grade.

To me elite describes the top percentile of the art/sport/institution. What makes someone elite? are they the best of the best? If not then why are they considered elite? Is the grade of Sandan considered elite? I didn't consider myself elite as a Sandan and still do not as a Nanadan.

This is the same as the label Master. To me this is as far from the correct usage as you can get. Maybe the founder or acting head of an organization can reasonably use this title but most use it to label those that have reached Yondan or Godan gradings. To me this does not fit the definition of the term. Master means you have mastered and have nothing left to learn. Elite means your better than the other 99% of your peers.

Can a Sandan claim to be better than the rest of your organization? Can a Godan claim to have mastered everything?

I am now a Nanadan and can honestly say I have mastered nothing and I can certainly say I do not consider myself Elite.

These labels are nothing more than a way to make those that are granted them feel good about themselves. Unless your in the top 1% of your art I don't think claiming elite status is right and unless you have nothing left to learn you can not claim to be a master of anything.

Humility and maintaining a beginners mind is something not seen very often anymore. Titles do not make the person. It's just a title and nothing more.

[Alan Armstrong]

Elitists in the past were known as those that had plenty of wealth and power over others, they considered themselves (with their attitude towards others) to be the best due to their financial circumstance.

Others consider themselves superior due to genetics "elite" the primary cause for WWII

For athletes martial artist or which ever sport they are in, I'm sure most don't concern themselves about being elite and are more concerned about doing their personal best.

[SaiFightsMS]

When I see someone who is really elite in their field of endeavor I see a dedication that permeates their whole being. For some it is a total awareness of what is around them and a sense of when to move and when to react before what they are reacting to seems obvious to others. Some see in their opponents eyes what move is coming next. Some see their surroundings in a blink and see where to move to be ready to intercept, the open spot to get to out of the way of danger almost like a 6th sense. For those whose commitment to training in whatever area they choose permeates them to their core.

[Alan Armstrong]

When I see someone who is really elite in their field of endeavor I see a dedication that permeates their whole being. For some it is a total awareness of what is around them and a sense of when to move and when to react before what they are reacting to seems obvious to others. Some see in their opponents eyes what move is coming next. Some see their surroundings in a blink and see where to move to be ready to intercept, the open spot to get to out of the way of danger almost like a 6th sense. For those whose commitment to training in whatever area they choose permeates them to their core.

Elite sparring skills for instance needs to be learned. Once learned it needs to become integrated in to muscle memory; for instantaneous efficiency.

1.) To have an exceptional understanding of human symmetry is essential; yours and the opponent's.

2.) The twisting motion of left and right hook punches is a good model of symmetry in motion.

3.) A simple understanding of the letter n representing the legs, standing in the vertical position and also n representing arms on the horizontal plane such as from the birds eye view are important to understand, the set combinations between your lower and upper n and the opponent's is essential knowledge for effective efficient fighting techniques.

4.) Techniques used with the arms have very similar motions with the legs. Chinese terminology for techniques often just change the name of the movements from arm to foot or elbow with knee; or visa versa.

5.) Natural movement and the direction of energy involved is often overlooked, having a sense of yours and the opponents will enhance your intercepting and countering techniques.

6.) We are all built in a similar way with two hands and two feet, therefore I know when I am being kicked they are standing only on one leg and their balance is only half as strong as mine.

7.) Know that every martial art move has a counter move; therefore counter the opponent at every turn and attack the opponent in a multitude of ways that they haven't learned how to counter.

8.) The most overlooked and underrated none technique ever devised, since the beginning of any style of martial art was ever invented by man, woman or child, is to move yourself out of harms way and in to a position of advantage over the opponent.

9.) There are similarities between dancing with a partner and a sparring partner; one is leading and one is following. There is a synchronicity involved between two fluttering butterflies or a dog chasing a rabbit.

10.) The best way to defend against a predator is to attack. The last thing a predator expects is to be attacked, as their experiences are usually, taking their time and having the upper hand.

The 6th sense of a martial artist is to combine the 5 we already have. Or add fearlessness to you senses and just call it your 6th virtue.