What makes the elite, elite?

[JR 137]

What makes the elite, elite?

There's a sandan woman at the dojo I train at. I mean this all respectfully and I don't look down on her in any way; in fact I hold her in the highest regard. Her mobility is horrible due to her size and many orthopedic issues. She can't kick much higher than mid-thigh height. While there's a lot of power in her kata and kihon, it's not exactly textbook (even though she can thoroughly explain and teach textbook technique).

Despite all of this, I truly consider her an elite fighter. Unless she's obviously letting me, I can't hit her. Every time I try to hit her, she hits me before my punch/kick is even halfway to it's intended target. Seriously... there's nothing I can do that's remotely effective.

I look at elite fighters and athletes and ask myself what makes them elite? Michael Jordan wasn't the tallest, strongest, fastest player the NBA has ever seen, nor was he compared to the people he played against. Same for Wayne Gretzky, Mohammed Ali, etc. It seems like people of that caliber can pretty much do whatever they want, whenever they want to in the ring, on the court, etc.

What is it? The more I think about it, I think it's their vision. They see things happen before they actually happen. All most people saw was Michael Jordan's big dunks; they didn't see him perfectly read what was about to come, react to it, then make the move that "coincidentally" put him into the right place at the right time to make the big finish. Everyone saw Mike Tyson's knockout punch; they didn't see him read his opponent, slip, and "coincidentally" be in the perfect position to deliver that punch cleanly.

Am I looking at it all wrong? Anything you'd like to add?

To add - I'm not looking at this from a competition standpoint; I'm just trying to be a better karateka. I have very little interest in winning trophies.

[LLLEARNER]

I think they have a really well developed sense of strategy. They understand what likely avenues for attack or defense are available to an opponent can counter them without conscience thought. There is some natural inclination that they have developed through study/training and experience.

I remember watching a show on the Discovery channel that examined elite former military members. One was a Navy SEAL who could stay in cold water for extended lengths of time. Another was a former Mossad agent. I am not sure what role he had, but the examined his reaction time to a threat from the back. Through training and experience his reaction was completed before most people could process the threat existed. He crossed the line of having to think about the threat, decided on a reaction, and respond to the action. It was muscle memory at that point. I think the elite fall into that catergory. No matter the discipline, from an athlete to a math genius, to a musical prodigy.

[sensei8]

Whenever we start to label our fellow MAists, in a good way or a bad way, we pass judgement, as though they've considered our opinions.

I can look at a Painted Masterpiece, and see it totally different from the individual that's standing right next to me. Appreciation is in the eye of the beholder.

Here's my thing, if I might. She's earned that Sandan!! Albeit, that she's some physicality that are prohibiting her from mobility/movement as the other Sandan's.

Still, who's to say, and who's the right to say that she's, or anyone else for that fact, that she's/they're not elite?!?

The term elite, to me, as it comes to MAists, puts that label smack right over their style patch, and brings unwanted pressure on the MAist. Whereas, the focus shouldn't be in the quest of searching to earn that unimportant label, which has its importance to some minuscule degree, but more importantly, the search for knowledge and experience instead.

"You say that because you yourself don't warrant to be labeled an Elite MAist, so it's so easy to dodge it across the board!!" NO!!

Why can't I be just a MAists, and nothing more?!

Is Jordan an elite basketball player?? Is Babe Ruth an elite baseball player?? Is Troy Aikman an elite football player?? Is any professional athlete elite??

Opinion's vary!!

I'm sure that there are quite many individuals that are the "elite" in their profession, but, to be honest, that's not for me to say, one way or another.

Whenever we decide that this person is or isn't an elite whatever, then we place them on that pedestal, and once they're on that pedestal, they've got to meet someone's expectations constantly. Whenever that time passes, they'll reach a point in when someone's opinion will knock them right off that pedestal according to that observers opinion(s).

When that elite in whatever, ages, are they still "elite"?? If not, why?? Because they're older and such?? After all, and if we're to use the word "elite", their knowledge and experience is much more "elite" than many others in same field.

Was Funakoshi an elite MAist in his advanced age?? Was Ueshiba an elite MA is his advanced age?? Whom else can you think of that you're aware of that are of an advanced age, and they're still on the floor, or were on the floor up to their last days, and I ask the same thing...Was that individual an elite MAist??

Is an handicapped MAist elite??

Am I elite?? Am I a Master?? I don't know, but what I do know, is that I've the knowledge and experience, that many others in the MA don't have, and this is what I'm striving for...knowledge and experience, and I'm still learning...still learning...still learning!! Anything else, just isn't that important to me!!

[JR 137]

Whenever we start to label our fellow MAists, in a good way or a bad way, we pass judgement, as though they've considered our opinions.

I can look at a Painted Masterpiece, and see it totally different from the individual that's standing right next to me. Appreciation is in the eye of the beholder.

Here's my thing, if I might. She's earned that Sandan!! Albeit, that she's some physicality that are prohibiting her from mobility/movement as the other Sandan's.

Still, who's to say, and who's the right to say that she's, or anyone else for that fact, that she's/they're not elite?!?

The term elite, to me, as it comes to MAists, puts that label smack right over their style patch, and brings unwanted pressure on the MAist. Whereas, the focus shouldn't be in the quest of searching to earn that unimportant label, which has its importance to some minuscule degree, but more importantly, the search for knowledge and experience instead.

"You say that because you yourself don't warrant to be labeled an Elite MAist, so it's so easy to dodge it across the board!!" NO!!

Why can't I be just a MAists, and nothing more?!

Is Jordan an elite basketball player?? Is Babe Ruth an elite baseball player?? Is Troy Aikman an elite football player?? Is any professional athlete elite??

Opinion's vary!!

I'm sure that there are quite many individuals that are the "elite" in their profession, but, to be honest, that's not for me to say, one way or another.

Whenever we decide that this person is or isn't an elite whatever, then we place them on that pedestal, and once they're on that pedestal, they've got to meet someone's expectations constantly. Whenever that time passes, they'll reach a point in when someone's opinion will knock them right off that pedestal according to that observers opinion(s).

When that elite in whatever, ages, are they still "elite"?? If not, why?? Because they're older and such?? After all, and if we're to use the word "elite", their knowledge and experience is much more "elite" than many others in same field.

Was Funakoshi an elite MAist in his advanced age?? Was Ueshiba an elite MA is his advanced age?? Whom else can you think of that you're aware of that are of an advanced age, and they're still on the floor, or were on the floor up to their last days, and I ask the same thing...Was that individual an elite MAist??

Is an handicapped MAist elite??

Am I elite?? Am I a Master?? I don't know, but what I do know, is that I've the knowledge and experience, that many others in the MA don't have, and this is what I'm striving for...knowledge and experience, and I'm still learning...still learning...still learning!! Anything else, just isn't that important to me!!

Ok, let me rephrase it...

You see people who seem like they're performing at a really high level. Seemingly at a level higher than everyone else. And they're doing it consistently. They're not the biggest, strongest, fastest, etc.; compared to the people they're competing against, they're usually average in physical aspects. Yet they're dominating. They look like an adult competing against kids.

What is it?

People I've been around who are at another level seem to see what's coming and react to it. Sometimes they see it coming before the person actually does it. Sparring with the lady I referenced above, it felt like she knew what I was going to do before I knew I was going to do it.

[sensei8]

Whenever we start to label our fellow MAists, in a good way or a bad way, we pass judgement, as though they've considered our opinions.

I can look at a Painted Masterpiece, and see it totally different from the individual that's standing right next to me. Appreciation is in the eye of the beholder.

Here's my thing, if I might. She's earned that Sandan!! Albeit, that she's some physicality that are prohibiting her from mobility/movement as the other Sandan's.

Still, who's to say, and who's the right to say that she's, or anyone else for that fact, that she's/they're not elite?!?

The term elite, to me, as it comes to MAists, puts that label smack right over their style patch, and brings unwanted pressure on the MAist. Whereas, the focus shouldn't be in the quest of searching to earn that unimportant label, which has its importance to some minuscule degree, but more importantly, the search for knowledge and experience instead.

"You say that because you yourself don't warrant to be labeled an Elite MAist, so it's so easy to dodge it across the board!!" NO!!

Why can't I be just a MAists, and nothing more?!

Is Jordan an elite basketball player?? Is Babe Ruth an elite baseball player?? Is Troy Aikman an elite football player?? Is any professional athlete elite??

Opinion's vary!!

I'm sure that there are quite many individuals that are the "elite" in their profession, but, to be honest, that's not for me to say, one way or another.

Whenever we decide that this person is or isn't an elite whatever, then we place them on that pedestal, and once they're on that pedestal, they've got to meet someone's expectations constantly. Whenever that time passes, they'll reach a point in when someone's opinion will knock them right off that pedestal according to that observers opinion(s).

When that elite in whatever, ages, are they still "elite"?? If not, why?? Because they're older and such?? After all, and if we're to use the word "elite", their knowledge and experience is much more "elite" than many others in same field.

Was Funakoshi an elite MAist in his advanced age?? Was Ueshiba an elite MA is his advanced age?? Whom else can you think of that you're aware of that are of an advanced age, and they're still on the floor, or were on the floor up to their last days, and I ask the same thing...Was that individual an elite MAist??

Is an handicapped MAist elite??

Am I elite?? Am I a Master?? I don't know, but what I do know, is that I've the knowledge and experience, that many others in the MA don't have, and this is what I'm striving for...knowledge and experience, and I'm still learning...still learning...still learning!! Anything else, just isn't that important to me!!

Ok, let me rephrase it...

You see people who seem like they're performing at a really high level. Seemingly at a level higher than everyone else. And they're doing it consistently. They're not the biggest, strongest, fastest, etc.; compared to the people they're competing against, they're usually average in physical aspects. Yet they're dominating. They look like an adult competing against kids.

What is it?

People I've been around who are at another level seem to see what's coming and react to it. Sometimes they see it coming before the person actually does it. Sparring with the lady I referenced above, it felt like she knew what I was going to do before I knew I was going to do it.

To the bold type above...

Knowledge and experience!!

I see many things as if they're in slow motion. I'm capable of seeing things most differently, and in that, I can see it before it reveals itself, than I use to through the acquired knowledge and experience of 52 plus years in the MA.

[LLLEARNER]

What is it?

People I've been around who are at another level seem to see what's coming and react to it. Sometimes they see it coming before the person actually does it. Sparring with the lady I referenced above, it felt like she knew what I was going to do before I knew I was going to do it.

She does know what your going to do. She is in your head dude!

[sensei8]

What is it?

People I've been around who are at another level seem to see what's coming and react to it. Sometimes they see it coming before the person actually does it. Sparring with the lady I referenced above, it felt like she knew what I was going to do before I knew I was going to do it.

She does know what your going to do. She is in your head dude!

Also, she's been on the floor with you long enough that she does know you quite well enough; familiarity is everything.

[JR 137]

What is it?

People I've been around who are at another level seem to see what's coming and react to it. Sometimes they see it coming before the person actually does it. Sparring with the lady I referenced above, it felt like she knew what I was going to do before I knew I was going to do it.

She does know what your going to do. She is in your head dude!

Also, she's been on the floor with you long enough that she does know you quite well enough; familiarity is everything.

I'd agree with this, however I've only sparred with her a handful of times. And we don't see each other very often - opposite schedules in training. And she's been able to do that since the first time I sparred with her, literally.

She just owns me every time we spar. And she doesn't do it in a way to show her dominance or anything else negatively. I've been wanting to ask her what it is that she sees, but I haven't had the appropriate chance to. I don't think I have any outright tells, as no one else (even the people I spar with regularly) do what she does, and my teacher hasn't told me of any.

It reminds me somewhat of the few videos I've seen of Mas Oyama sparring with his students - he'd barely move, yet his students couldn't him him, and he was able hit them at will. Not that she's Mas Oyama level.

But regardless, she's just an example. I'm just trying to figure out more of how some people are able to do this so I can try to incorporate it. I know, keep sparring...

[JR 137]

What is it?

People I've been around who are at another level seem to see what's coming and react to it. Sometimes they see it coming before the person actually does it. Sparring with the lady I referenced above, it felt like she knew what I was going to do before I knew I was going to do it.

She does know what your going to do. She is in your head dude!

I'm trying to figure out how!!!

[DWx]

What is it?

People I've been around who are at another level seem to see what's coming and react to it. Sometimes they see it coming before the person actually does it. Sparring with the lady I referenced above, it felt like she knew what I was going to do before I knew I was going to do it.

She does know what your going to do. She is in your head dude!

Also, she's been on the floor with you long enough that she does know you quite well enough; familiarity is everything.

I'd agree with this, however I've only sparred with her a handful of times. And we don't see each other very often - opposite schedules in training. And she's been able to do that since the first time I sparred with her, literally.

She just owns me every time we spar. And she doesn't do it in a way to show her dominance or anything else negatively. I've been wanting to ask her what it is that she sees, but I haven't had the appropriate chance to. I don't think I have any outright tells, as no one else (even the people I spar with regularly) do what she does, and my teacher hasn't told me of any.

It reminds me somewhat of the few videos I've seen of Mas Oyama sparring with his students - he'd barely move, yet his students couldn't him him, and he was able hit them at will. Not that she's Mas Oyama level.

But regardless, she's just an example. I'm just trying to figure out more of how some people are able to do this so I can try to incorporate it. I know, keep sparring...

I have a theory that the best martial artists aren't necessarily those who are the most gifted physically. In fact sometimes I see it as a disadvantage. Of all the people I've trained and trained with, those with average physical ability can sometimes be more elite than the elite athletes that come through the doors. Whilst the gym rat or the ex-football player are stronger and faster, they tend to rely on these attributes to get by and often unintentionally cut corners because they can.

For example I'm sure we've all seen the young girls who walk into the dojo and drop into the box splits before popping up and side kicking vertically in the air? Looks impressive but more often than not its not a real side kick. The less gifted student who only kicks hip level 9/10 has better mechanics and a better understanding because they are forced to. The uber-flexible student can just lift their leg up so they get away with not rotating the hips or rotating the standing leg. As a result they never fully understand what they are doing or learn the finer points whereas the student with limited flexibility must otherwise they have no hope of even reaching hip level. I spend hours correcting the teens who train with me on how to kick properly, not just to place their leg in a position, but to generate power as well.

In sparring the same goes for the strong student who mistakes strength for power. At first they win all the time because they physical outpower their opponent but they tend not to learn the little nuances or learn to read the signs and react. The students who are not so strong have to quickly develop strategies and tactics to compensate for their physical shortfall and ultimately they develop av deeper understanding.

Of course you do get those that both have the physicality and the mental aptitude, but in general I think through better understanding you become elite and not just by becoming stronger or faster.