Child Black Belts

[LLLEARNER]

I feel like this topic should be stickie since it seems like this one topic is always posted at least once a year.

Whose turn is it to post it next year?

[sensei8]

I don't ever bow to the rank!! Please understand, who's to say what should be or shouldn't be done in regards to this particular situation, in this particular thread/discussion??

You?? Me?? Someone else??

Well, YES!! All of the above!! We've our preferences both personal and professional, each of us!!

I was raised in the MA under the umbrella of being a JBB, and I earned mine when I was 13 years old, which only 6 years on the floor. Albeit, our Soke and Dai-Soke had very strict, and unforgivable, rules about anyone being a black belt, and kids, weren't ever allowed to earn a full blown Shodan, ever!!

As told to us by Dai-Soke, Soke forbid any notion for the JBB rank; he was hardened against it, and for a long time, he'd not hear a word about it from anyone. A child was only allowed to earn Ikkyu, and nothing else, until the student reached the age of 18 years old, if even then.

A child could wear that Ikkyu until the world ended as far as Soke was concerned. This of course, was the very same mindset of Dai-Soke!! This of course, is the very same mindset that I've adopted.

In time, and surprise to all of us, including Dai-Soke, Soke one day authorized the creation of the JBB rank, and all that it's comprised of. When questioned about the new found JBB from Dai-Soke, Soke simply said...

"I don't answer to anyone, not even you, especially you. Don't forget your manners!!"

To this day, I carry their mindset about quite a lot of things when it comes to the MA. I don't apologize for it!! It is what it is!!

In the regards to this 11 year old, yes, I'd only extend my manners to the DOJO, for any floor deserves that from me because, to me, it's sacred ground, and to not be taken lightly at any time.

What practitioners do upon that sacred floor is there business, UNLESS, I've the direct authority over it completely. As a guest, I'm just a student!! As a guest, I extend my manners!! As a guest, I choose to decide when and when not to excuse myself and leave forthwith; the faster, the better!!

If I bow in the presence of that 11 year old black belt, for whatever the reason(s), I do so because of manners!! I do so because of respect for the floor!! I do so because of respect for the DOJO, and no person that's within said dojo!!

Might wonder, why would I attend an event, knowing that there would be a 11 year old black belt in attendance in different roles?? Simple!! I'm a student, and I want to learn!! What can a 11 year old black belt teach me that I've not already learned in 5 decades?? I don't know, and I won't know until I see it for myself, even if the 11 year old black belt is only assisting, and not teaching, said event.

Yes, my eye brows will be lifted in complete discord; already not approving that this 11 year old is wearing a full blown black belt. I might even shake my head disapprovingly so, as well!! But what I won't do, is disrespect the DOJO or my Soke or my Dai-Soke because I'm a representative of the SKKA; MANNERS!! I won't disrespect the floor!! I'll not make a scene, and if I'm at the end of my wits, I'll just bow out, dress out, and drive away!!

That 11 year old black belt deserves my manners, no matter how much I might despise what I'm witnessing. Part of teaching is to have that open mind, and I've tried, desperately I've tried, but it is what it is...

I was taught, at first, that no child shall ever earn any rank above Ikkyu. I was taught secondly, that no child shall ever earn a JBB until the age of 13 years of age, and within that, no child can earn rank while being a JBB. I was taught thirdly, that no child shall ever earn Shodan until the minimum age of 18 years old. I was taught fourthly, that no child can be on the floor as an instructor without the explicit and strict guidance of the CI being on the floor supervision and approval. This is the way of Shindokan. This is the way of Soke and Dai-Soke. This is the way of the SKKA. This is our way!!

Hopefully, I've not lost anyone's respect here for my ways; the ways that were taught to me, and the ways that I still value.

[MatsuShinshii]

No respect lost at all. We all have our values and live by our own standards.

I absolutely agree with you on the manners and how we should always maintain them. But for me, my manners would be not telling this child's teacher what I thought about this as politely as I could muster. To the child, I would say nothing except to say "please excuse me but I have to leave".

I do not place blame or fault on any child for an adults decisions.

I absolutely get where you are coming from and due to my fathers up bringing I can absolutely see your point of view. I just could not bring myself to bow to her or the Dojo because my feeling on it is fairly straight forward; if this is going on in this school it is to me not a Dojo (sacred place).

For me it would be like walking into a Dojo of a person that read a book and sent off and paid for a high grade without ever stepping foot into a real Dojo and passing themselves off as the real deal. I extend no respect for this type thing. My manners would be to walk out as I would do with this 11 yr old.

I get your point but for an old set in his ways kind of guy like me this is practicing manners. In my younger days or after I left the Marine Corps my reaction would be far less diplomatic and measured. Age has softened me and calmed me down. Believe me when I say, walking out for me is good manners.

[MatsuShinshii]

I was taught, at first, that no child shall ever earn any rank above Ikkyu. I was taught secondly, that no child shall ever earn a JBB until the age of 13 years of age, and within that, no child can earn rank while being a JBB. I was taught thirdly, that no child shall ever earn Shodan until the minimum age of 18 years old. I was taught fourthly, that no child can be on the floor as an instructor without the explicit and strict guidance of the CI being on the floor supervision and approval. This is the way of Shindokan. This is the way of Soke and Dai-Soke. This is the way of the SKKA. This is our way!!

We have somewhat similar yet very strict guidelines as well.

Since we/I do not teach children I can't speak to the Ikkyu/JBB statements above but I would have to say that if I did teach kids this would be my philosophy as well, albeit the age for JJB might be a tad higher.

Shodan is the same for us although pretty much impossible since we do not accept students younger than 16 and it takes a minimum of 5 yrs to Shodan. However one of my Shinshii's teachers did accomplish this.

I absolutely agree with your fourth rule.

And please do not get me wrong, this is not an age per-say issue. As I have stated before, one of my students surpassed me in grade/rank and I never had an issue showing him my utmost respect. My issue is showing respect to paper tigers as one of my friends call them. Grade without substance and warrant. I could never respect this.

As far as the person I have no issue extending respect. I extend respect to everyone until they prove that they are not worthy of my respect. Seeing an 11 yr old wearing a Yondan grading looses my respect instantly for her teacher and her school. It's not about respect for her. Showing that is easy. However I could never respect the teacher that promoted her, the school that she trains in nor the organization that would allow this. And because of that I would just simply do an about face and walk out the door.

Hopefully you can understand that it is not showing disrespect to the person but rather not showing respect for an unworthy grade, teacher, organization.

I have a real issue with those that would issue or put on a grade that they are not worthy of or did not EARN. It's a lack of respect for the grade not the person in this case. However in the case of someone portraying themselves to be a grade they have not EARNED, unfortunately I would in fact loose your respect, because I could not extend my respect for that person.

[MatsuShinshii]

I feel like this topic should be stickie since it seems like this one topic is always posted at least once a year.

Whose turn is it to post it next year?

I was quite hesitant to post this because of other similar posts. I thought that this was in a different line as this concerned a full Yondan grading but I agree the feelings and comments are along the same lines as other posts.

[The Pred]

I don't ever bow to the rank!! Please understand, who's to say what should be or shouldn't be done in regards to this particular situation, in this particular thread/discussion??

You?? Me?? Someone else??

Well, YES!! All of the above!! We've our preferences both personal and professional, each of us!!

I was raised in the MA under the umbrella of being a JBB, and I earned mine when I was 13 years old, which only 6 years on the floor. Albeit, our Soke and Dai-Soke had very strict, and unforgivable, rules about anyone being a black belt, and kids, weren't ever allowed to earn a full blown Shodan, ever!!

As told to us by Dai-Soke, Soke forbid any notion for the JBB rank; he was hardened against it, and for a long time, he'd not hear a word about it from anyone. A child was only allowed to earn Ikkyu, and nothing else, until the student reached the age of 18 years old, if even then.

A child could wear that Ikkyu until the world ended as far as Soke was concerned. This of course, was the very same mindset of Dai-Soke!! This of course, is the very same mindset that I've adopted.

In time, and surprise to all of us, including Dai-Soke, Soke one day authorized the creation of the JBB rank, and all that it's comprised of. When questioned about the new found JBB from Dai-Soke, Soke simply said...

"I don't answer to anyone, not even you, especially you. Don't forget your manners!!"

To this day, I carry their mindset about quite a lot of things when it comes to the MA. I don't apologize for it!! It is what it is!!

In the regards to this 11 year old, yes, I'd only extend my manners to the DOJO, for any floor deserves that from me because, to me, it's sacred ground, and to not be taken lightly at any time.

What practitioners do upon that sacred floor is there business, UNLESS, I've the direct authority over it completely. As a guest, I'm just a student!! As a guest, I extend my manners!! As a guest, I choose to decide when and when not to excuse myself and leave forthwith; the faster, the better!!

If I bow in the presence of that 11 year old black belt, for whatever the reason(s), I do so because of manners!! I do so because of respect for the floor!! I do so because of respect for the DOJO, and no person that's within said dojo!!

Might wonder, why would I attend an event, knowing that there would be a 11 year old black belt in attendance in different roles?? Simple!! I'm a student, and I want to learn!! What can a 11 year old black belt teach me that I've not already learned in 5 decades?? I don't know, and I won't know until I see it for myself, even if the 11 year old black belt is only assisting, and not teaching, said event.

Yes, my eye brows will be lifted in complete discord; already not approving that this 11 year old is wearing a full blown black belt. I might even shake my head disapprovingly so, as well!! But what I won't do, is disrespect the DOJO or my Soke or my Dai-Soke because I'm a representative of the SKKA; MANNERS!! I won't disrespect the floor!! I'll not make a scene, and if I'm at the end of my wits, I'll just bow out, dress out, and drive away!!

That 11 year old black belt deserves my manners, no matter how much I might despise what I'm witnessing. Part of teaching is to have that open mind, and I've tried, desperately I've tried, but it is what it is...

I was taught, at first, that no child shall ever earn any rank above Ikkyu. I was taught secondly, that no child shall ever earn a JBB until the age of 13 years of age, and within that, no child can earn rank while being a JBB. I was taught thirdly, that no child shall ever earn Shodan until the minimum age of 18 years old. I was taught fourthly, that no child can be on the floor as an instructor without the explicit and strict guidance of the CI being on the floor supervision and approval. This is the way of Shindokan. This is the way of Soke and Dai-Soke. This is the way of the SKKA. This is our way!!

Hopefully, I've not lost anyone's respect here for my ways; the ways that were taught to me, and the ways that I still value.

I remember you saying that your sensei was a shodan at 16. Was he the only one?

[sensei8]

I don't ever bow to the rank!! Please understand, who's to say what should be or shouldn't be done in regards to this particular situation, in this particular thread/discussion??

You?? Me?? Someone else??

Well, YES!! All of the above!! We've our preferences both personal and professional, each of us!!

I was raised in the MA under the umbrella of being a JBB, and I earned mine when I was 13 years old, which only 6 years on the floor. Albeit, our Soke and Dai-Soke had very strict, and unforgivable, rules about anyone being a black belt, and kids, weren't ever allowed to earn a full blown Shodan, ever!!

As told to us by Dai-Soke, Soke forbid any notion for the JBB rank; he was hardened against it, and for a long time, he'd not hear a word about it from anyone. A child was only allowed to earn Ikkyu, and nothing else, until the student reached the age of 18 years old, if even then.

A child could wear that Ikkyu until the world ended as far as Soke was concerned. This of course, was the very same mindset of Dai-Soke!! This of course, is the very same mindset that I've adopted.

In time, and surprise to all of us, including Dai-Soke, Soke one day authorized the creation of the JBB rank, and all that it's comprised of. When questioned about the new found JBB from Dai-Soke, Soke simply said...

"I don't answer to anyone, not even you, especially you. Don't forget your manners!!"

To this day, I carry their mindset about quite a lot of things when it comes to the MA. I don't apologize for it!! It is what it is!!

In the regards to this 11 year old, yes, I'd only extend my manners to the DOJO, for any floor deserves that from me because, to me, it's sacred ground, and to not be taken lightly at any time.

What practitioners do upon that sacred floor is there business, UNLESS, I've the direct authority over it completely. As a guest, I'm just a student!! As a guest, I extend my manners!! As a guest, I choose to decide when and when not to excuse myself and leave forthwith; the faster, the better!!

If I bow in the presence of that 11 year old black belt, for whatever the reason(s), I do so because of manners!! I do so because of respect for the floor!! I do so because of respect for the DOJO, and no person that's within said dojo!!

Might wonder, why would I attend an event, knowing that there would be a 11 year old black belt in attendance in different roles?? Simple!! I'm a student, and I want to learn!! What can a 11 year old black belt teach me that I've not already learned in 5 decades?? I don't know, and I won't know until I see it for myself, even if the 11 year old black belt is only assisting, and not teaching, said event.

Yes, my eye brows will be lifted in complete discord; already not approving that this 11 year old is wearing a full blown black belt. I might even shake my head disapprovingly so, as well!! But what I won't do, is disrespect the DOJO or my Soke or my Dai-Soke because I'm a representative of the SKKA; MANNERS!! I won't disrespect the floor!! I'll not make a scene, and if I'm at the end of my wits, I'll just bow out, dress out, and drive away!!

That 11 year old black belt deserves my manners, no matter how much I might despise what I'm witnessing. Part of teaching is to have that open mind, and I've tried, desperately I've tried, but it is what it is...

I was taught, at first, that no child shall ever earn any rank above Ikkyu. I was taught secondly, that no child shall ever earn a JBB until the age of 13 years of age, and within that, no child can earn rank while being a JBB. I was taught thirdly, that no child shall ever earn Shodan until the minimum age of 18 years old. I was taught fourthly, that no child can be on the floor as an instructor without the explicit and strict guidance of the CI being on the floor supervision and approval. This is the way of Shindokan. This is the way of Soke and Dai-Soke. This is the way of the SKKA. This is our way!!

Hopefully, I've not lost anyone's respect here for my ways; the ways that were taught to me, and the ways that I still value.

I remember you saying that your sensei was a shodan at 16. Was he the only one?

At that time, the ethos in Japan/Okinawa, at 16 years of age, one is an adult. So, yes, Dai-Soke was the only one!!

Many years after him earning his Shodan, Soke changed his mindset concerning the Dan ranking pertaining to the ages under 18 years of age, therefore, the JBB was birthed in the SKKA by Soke!!

What was once before, isn't the same anymore!!

[DWx]

Have you all seen the Japanese kid they're calling mini-Bruce Lee, Ryusei Imai? Blackbelt or not blackbelt??

https://www.facebook.com/ryu.bruce.3/videos/pcb.10208995382623043/10208995371502765/?type=3&theater

[sensei8]

Have you all seen the Japanese kid they're calling mini-Bruce Lee, Ryusei Imai? Blackbelt or not blackbelt??

https://www.facebook.com/ryu.bruce.3/videos/pcb.10208995382623043/10208995371502765/?type=3&theater

Based on what I can see through the video, and that is that he's repeating the same set of movements over and over; mimic overtones. I'd say, no, he's not a black belt...not even close!!

Imho!!

[DWx]

Have you all seen the Japanese kid they're calling mini-Bruce Lee, Ryusei Imai? Blackbelt or not blackbelt??

https://www.facebook.com/ryu.bruce.3/videos/pcb.10208995382623043/10208995371502765/?type=3&theater

Based on what I can see through the video, and that is that he's repeating the same set of movements over and over; mimic overtones. I'd say, no, he's not a black belt...not even close!!

Imho!!

He's running through drills so I don't think him repeating the same combination is a reason to discount him. I posted the video more to look at his mechanics and movement.