Bamboo and human bone

[JR 137]

One flaw I always find in these "it takes the same amount of force to break a rib as it does to break a single pine board" type analogies is this...

Humans move. They have quite a bit of give. Ribs compress, the defender braces for impact thereby spreading out and slowing down the force, etc. Hitting a pine board that's fixed/locked into place such as on top of concrete blocks will break easily. A pine board on top of a pillow? No so easy. A coconut on the ground will smash far easier that one that swings on a rope. If you equate a coconut with a skull, a coconut attached to a neck is going to be far harder to break that a coconut that can't move and disperse that force.

If I have all my weight on one leg and don't see a kick coming, my tibia will break far easier than if I lift my leg and allow someone to kick my shin with the same amount of force and pressure at the same exact location.

Using arbitrary force amounts, if it takes 100 Newtons of force to break a "fixed" tibia (doesn't allow any movement), it'll take multiples of that to break my tibia in actual fighting where I can move, fall, etc. It's the same concept as throwing an egg against a wall vs against a bed sheet. And that doesn't take living bone vs dead and dried up bone into account.

Yeah, I hadn't even got to that part yet in my suggestions. But this is another issue with simulating human tissue to strike. People move and, not only that, but they are weirdly shaped and oddly supported so you can never be sure of what you are striking.

Think about a punch to the ribs...

I lift my arm up and bend to the opposite side, completely exposing them and giving a huge surface. You punch hard. My ribs will break

As you punch toward my ribs, I bring my arm down (but don't block the punch) and bend to the punching side to kind of ball up around where you're going to punch me. You punch exactly as hard as you did in the first scenario - it's going to take a lot more force to break my ribs vs the first scenario. Bending to the side helps slow down the impact because there's more soft tissue covering it, and by bending like that increases the surface area your fist hits, so there's less pressure. Our brain instinctually does this; we have to train to not go into the fetal position. And we train to not stand there with our ribs exposed.

Another example - Catching a water ballon with a single stiff hand will break it; catching one with both hands and keeping your hands "soft" and having some give will keep the ballon from popping.

[sensei8]

One flaw I always find in these "it takes the same amount of force to break a rib as it does to break a single pine board" type analogies is this...

Humans move. They have quite a bit of give. Ribs compress, the defender braces for impact thereby spreading out and slowing down the force, etc. Hitting a pine board that's fixed/locked into place such as on top of concrete blocks will break easily. A pine board on top of a pillow? No so easy. A coconut on the ground will smash far easier that one that swings on a rope. If you equate a coconut with a skull, a coconut attached to a neck is going to be far harder to break that a coconut that can't move and disperse that force.

If I have all my weight on one leg and don't see a kick coming, my tibia will break far easier than if I lift my leg and allow someone to kick my shin with the same amount of force and pressure at the same exact location.

Using arbitrary force amounts, if it takes 100 Newtons of force to break a "fixed" tibia (doesn't allow any movement), it'll take multiples of that to break my tibia in actual fighting where I can move, fall, etc. It's the same concept as throwing an egg against a wall vs against a bed sheet. And that doesn't take living bone vs dead and dried up bone into account.

Yeah, I hadn't even got to that part yet in my suggestions. But this is another issue with simulating human tissue to strike. People move and, not only that, but they are weirdly shaped and oddly supported so you can never be sure of what you are striking.

Think about a punch to the ribs...

I lift my arm up and bend to the opposite side, completely exposing them and giving a huge surface. You punch hard. My ribs will break

As you punch toward my ribs, I bring my arm down (but don't block the punch) and bend to the punching side to kind of ball up around where you're going to punch me. You punch exactly as hard as you did in the first scenario - it's going to take a lot more force to break my ribs vs the first scenario. Bending to the side helps slow down the impact because there's more soft tissue covering it, and by bending like that increases the surface area your fist hits, so there's less pressure. Our brain instinctually does this; we have to train to not go into the fetal position. And we train to not stand there with our ribs exposed.

Another example - Catching a water ballon with a single stiff hand will break it; catching one with both hands and keeping your hands "soft" and having some give will keep the ballon from popping.

To the bold type above...

While we're speaking more specifically about the context of this thread, I couldn't resist the temptation to admire the simplicity of a perfect statement, as in what's bold above. That is one of the most complete explanations of receiving I've heard in quite along time from any MAist outside of Shindokan. In Shindokan, we never ever block, NO!! We receive the attack, much like a wide receiver catches a thrown football. It's soft, while at the same time, it's hard, if you catch my meaning.

[LLLEARNER]

One flaw I always find in these "it takes the same amount of force to break a rib as it does to break a single pine board" type analogies is this...

Humans move. They have quite a bit of give. Ribs compress, the defender braces for impact thereby spreading out and slowing down the force, etc. Hitting a pine board that's fixed/locked into place such as on top of concrete blocks will break easily. A pine board on top of a pillow? No so easy. A coconut on the ground will smash far easier that one that swings on a rope. If you equate a coconut with a skull, a coconut attached to a neck is going to be far harder to break that a coconut that can't move and disperse that force.

If I have all my weight on one leg and don't see a kick coming, my tibia will break far easier than if I lift my leg and allow someone to kick my shin with the same amount of force and pressure at the same exact location.

Using arbitrary force amounts, if it takes 100 Newtons of force to break a "fixed" tibia (doesn't allow any movement), it'll take multiples of that to break my tibia in actual fighting where I can move, fall, etc. It's the same concept as throwing an egg against a wall vs against a bed sheet. And that doesn't take living bone vs dead and dried up bone into account.

Yeah, I hadn't even got to that part yet in my suggestions. But this is another issue with simulating human tissue to strike. People move and, not only that, but they are weirdly shaped and oddly supported so you can never be sure of what you are striking.

Think about a punch to the ribs...

I lift my arm up and bend to the opposite side, completely exposing them and giving a huge surface. You punch hard. My ribs will break

As you punch toward my ribs, I bring my arm down (but don't block the punch) and bend to the punching side to kind of ball up around where you're going to punch me. You punch exactly as hard as you did in the first scenario - it's going to take a lot more force to break my ribs vs the first scenario. Bending to the side helps slow down the impact because there's more soft tissue covering it, and by bending like that increases the surface area your fist hits, so there's less pressure. Our brain instinctually does this; we have to train to not go into the fetal position. And we train to not stand there with our ribs exposed.

Another example - Catching a water ballon with a single stiff hand will break it; catching one with both hands and keeping your hands "soft" and having some give will keep the ballon from popping.

To the bold type above...

While we're speaking more specifically about the context of this thread, I couldn't resist the temptation to admire the simplicity of a perfect statement, as in what's bold above. That is one of the most complete explanations of receiving I've heard in quite along time from any MAist outside of Shindokan. In Shindokan, we never ever block, NO!! We receive the attack, much like a wide receiver catches a thrown football. It's soft, while at the same time, it's hard, if you catch my meaning.

I caught your meaning softly, while at the same time firmly.

[DWx]

One flaw I always find in these "it takes the same amount of force to break a rib as it does to break a single pine board" type analogies is this...

Humans move. They have quite a bit of give. Ribs compress, the defender braces for impact thereby spreading out and slowing down the force, etc. Hitting a pine board that's fixed/locked into place such as on top of concrete blocks will break easily. A pine board on top of a pillow? No so easy. A coconut on the ground will smash far easier that one that swings on a rope. If you equate a coconut with a skull, a coconut attached to a neck is going to be far harder to break that a coconut that can't move and disperse that force.

If I have all my weight on one leg and don't see a kick coming, my tibia will break far easier than if I lift my leg and allow someone to kick my shin with the same amount of force and pressure at the same exact location.

Using arbitrary force amounts, if it takes 100 Newtons of force to break a "fixed" tibia (doesn't allow any movement), it'll take multiples of that to break my tibia in actual fighting where I can move, fall, etc. It's the same concept as throwing an egg against a wall vs against a bed sheet. And that doesn't take living bone vs dead and dried up bone into account.

Yeah, I hadn't even got to that part yet in my suggestions. But this is another issue with simulating human tissue to strike. People move and, not only that, but they are weirdly shaped and oddly supported so you can never be sure of what you are striking.

Think about a punch to the ribs...

I lift my arm up and bend to the opposite side, completely exposing them and giving a huge surface. You punch hard. My ribs will break

As you punch toward my ribs, I bring my arm down (but don't block the punch) and bend to the punching side to kind of ball up around where you're going to punch me. You punch exactly as hard as you did in the first scenario - it's going to take a lot more force to break my ribs vs the first scenario. Bending to the side helps slow down the impact because there's more soft tissue covering it, and by bending like that increases the surface area your fist hits, so there's less pressure. Our brain instinctually does this; we have to train to not go into the fetal position. And we train to not stand there with our ribs exposed.

Another example - Catching a water ballon with a single stiff hand will break it; catching one with both hands and keeping your hands "soft" and having some give will keep the ballon from popping.

It's a valid point JR. But then no material is going to move like a living human will. Bamboo, pine board, bricks, concrete, it all has its limitations. The point about tameshiwari is to test yourself and find out how much power you can generate. It's then reasonable to assume that you might be able to break a rib if you can punch through a stack of boards or bricks. Can't go round injuring our training partners all the time.

[JR 137]

I completely agree, Danielle. My point was just to dispel the myths of breaking X material is comparable to breaking Y bones.

I haven't done tameshiwari in quite some time. I miss it. It teaches a lot of good things. Everyone (well, all strikers) should do tameshiwari a few times in their career.

[Alan Armstrong]

'Bamboo' in (Chinese styles) can be used as nick name towards a male or female martial art student. The idea is for the student to be like bamoo; strong and flexible.

Also like to add, unrelated but interesting enough; "To be as hard as as puppet and as soft as a rag doll"

Bamboo has a million and one uses, can be used as a weapon, can be eaten, used as scaffolding and can be constructed to make martial art training aids; warning: Bamboo can snap back in dangerous ways, people have been known to get themselves killed with homemade bamboo gymnasium equipment.

But don't let the last statement put you off, just train safe!

[Marlon Bangkil]

I tink this is same from Arnis FMA