Is there such a thing as "real" karate?

[shortyafter]

Hi there - I wanted to get some 3rd party opinions from people who know more than I.

I started doing Kyokushin-kai 2 years ago. No preference, I just googled karate near my house and it was 5 minutes away. The sensei had trained in Japan, training was quite rigorous - etiquette is enforced, and don't break that kiba-dachi until Yame is called or you are going to get yelled at. At least hope the Sensei doesn't see but that's obviously not a great attitude. I advanced rapidly in 3 months, then, my career took me out of the country for about 9 months. I came back the following summer and same deal, this time don't feel I advanced as rapidly but see improvement and train well.

And here I am back in my new home again. It's a small town but there's a couple of dojos here. There is one I like, smaller, but I feel I jive well with the Sensei, and he was my first one here and I prefer to stick with him. It's Shotokan. Like I said, small dojo, so I'm usually training alone with the Sensei or with teenagers. Atmosphere is much more relaxed. We follow the etiquette but nothing is quite enforced, we greet the Sensei before the class but how we talk to him is really up to us, respectful sure but we can address him as a friend. I can break my kiba-dachi at any time without him saying anything, so it's really on me to be strong-spirited on that front. Or if I'm a bit sluggish one day the sensei might call me out but it won't result in a verbal disparagement until I shape up, or anything like that. That again is kind of on me.

Dojo 1 I feel like I was learning about - strong spirit, persistence, don't give up and push yourself beyond your limits. Dojo 2 I am learning much less about spirit and much more about technique. I am still feeling pushed but I feel pushed at a leisurely pace, it's not necessarily do or die like in Dojo 1. It's moreso on me, if I want to advance, I come to every class, and I practice at home, which is what I'm doing.

Honestly it got to the point where I did not enjoy training at dojo 1 because I was so darn scared going into class. Yes there were epic moments where myself or the class would rise above or overcome and I did learn from these, absolutely, but I finally decided gee it's just not worth so much stress to me. If my heart were in it maybe, but for me it's not my life, it's my hobby.

I remember Sensei 1 told us that such a dojo as dojo number 2 might be considered "fantasy karate". What is you all's opinion? Am I learning fantasy karate? Is there such a thing as "real" karate? How do you all train?

Thank you

[sensei8]

Welcome to KF, shortyafter; glad that you're here!!

What is you all's opinion?

The CI (Chief Instructor) runs their dojo the way they see fit!! Most of the time, not always, CI's run their dojo as their Sensei did/does...the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Oyama's Karate, Kyokushin-kai, is, for a lack of a better word, extreme compared to many other Karate styles. But again, the temperance of the dojo relies on the temperance of the CI. Seeing that dojo 1's CI trained in Japan, there's not much of surprise that that CI runs his dojo in the manner of which he does.

This is not to say that the Shotokan dojo's in Japan are more tolerable and understanding than most dojo's in Japan...because, they're not. Karate in Japan/Okinawa are a very serious undertaking for the student, and the CI's in Japan/Okinawa have little, if any, tolerance short of any prescribed devotion as well as seriousness.

Either way, imho, no matter the location and/or the culture surrounding said style of Karate, the CI runs his/her dojo to their liking's no matter what.

I run a very strict floor, it's sacred ground, however, off the floor, I'm much more personable and affable; a kid at heart. There's etiquette and protocol, to be for sure. I set the tone, and that tone must create a safe and enjoyable learning atmosphere for the students.

Take it or leave it...that's the choice of the student, and the student alone. If you were living and training in Japan/Okinawa, you'd expect the high strictness versus what one finds here in the USA. However, my Soke and Da-Soke were from Okinawa, and I gotta tell you, their strictness on AND off the floor was not to be taken lightly...no way...no how!!

What it comes down to is that while you can't change the manner of how they run their dojo, you can change your mind whenever you want when it comes to you either staying or leaving that dojo. Attend the dojo of your liking and of your choice.

Karate must fit like a glove...warm and snug and comfortable and wearable!!

Am I learning fantasy karate?

No!! Shotokan and Kyokushin-kai are not fantasy karate.

Is there such a thing as "real" karate?

Yes. Shotokan and Kyokushin-kai, and a many other Karate styles fit under the umbrella of authentic Karate.

A CI can ruin the experience, however, the fault, if any, must be shared by the CI and the Student. Otherwise, the dojo's is doomed across the board.

How do you all train?

Exactly as I was taught with a lot of love and care!! While I was taught by Soke and Dai-Soke, I'm my own person with my own personality; I run my dojo my way, and not their way, not now, not ever!!

Hang in there!!

[Lupin1]

I don't think there's such as thing as "real" karate. Karate is so varied and different people have different goals. I don't think the person doing karate for self-defense is any more or less "real" than the person doing it for fitness or the person doing it for the tradition and the art.

I do wish people would differentiate more between sport karate, combat-oriented karate and traditional karate, but I wouldn't call any one of those "real" or "fake". Just different.

Which type of karate and which dojo you choose depends on your goals and what you want to get out of karate. Choose a school that shares your goals and will help you meet them. Judging by your post, it sounds like dojo 2 may fit more with your personality and you will enjoy your training more there. Shotokan is most definitely not "fantasy karate" and is actually one of the more traditional styles.

You just have to ask yourself what you want to get out of karate and which of the dojos will help you meet your goals. Neither is more or less valid-- just a different approach.

Edit-- I also want to point out that many instructors are very invested in the approach they've chosen to the point they look down on those who've chosen a different approach. My instructor likes to throw around terms like "real karate" and "fake karate" when comparing us to the school down the street. We're a more traditional school with a large kata focus and our goal is power and focus in our movements. We don't do flashy moves or much "tag you're it" sparring. The other school is more sport-karate oriented. They do flashier moves with very little power or focus and do a lot of very light contact point sparring. Their goal is competition and fitness. I've had people from that school call what we do at my school "fake karate" because we're a small school at a community center that only rarely competes in small local competitions, and they're a large commercial school that competes regularly at large competitions where people win lots of medals and trophies. In reality, neither school is "real" or "fake". They just cater to people with different goals and different priorities.

[Dani_001]

Hi there,

You may not find much difference between Kyokushinkai and Shotokan as Kyokushin is comprised of Shotokan and Goju Ryu.

I agree with what everyone else said so not much to add.

Enjoy your experience on this forum and your Karate experience. Welcome to KF!

[pers]

Anything including karate be it shotokan or kyukoshin or else can be real or fake ,strong or weak ,depending on who is teaching it and how knowlegable they are ...

[Wayofaswede]

Welcome to the forum

I believe that labels such as "real" and "fake" are of less importance than what you feel actually give you real strength/growth/joy/mindset to overcome obstacles in life etc.

If the overall journey leads in a direction that affects your life in a positive direction, then you are training a budo art that is "real", valuable, important to you.

In other words, listen to your heart, your instincts, gut feeling, then train where - and in a way that makes - you improve both physically and mentally.

Turn to - and stick to - the sun that makes you truly grow and blossom like a cherry tree. Best of luck with your training.

[wildbourgman]

Wildbourgman Kai do Ryu is the only real karate!

The question is very subjective, so humor is my only answer.

[Wado Heretic]

Karate only becomes fake when those practising it lack sincerity; when they make a claim about what they practice which is not grounded in reality.

If you claim to teach karate as self-defence, and then neglect practical self-defence considerations then that is "fake" Karate. If you claim to teach karate as a sport, but ignore sport science, fitness, and competition practice then that is "Fake" karate. If you call your karate traditional but do not practice Hojo Undo, and the other marks of historical practice then that is "Fake" karate.

So long as what your claims about your karate, and what you actually do, are one in the same; it is real. I am a hard teacher; full-contact is an aspect of what I teach, as is Hojo-Undo. However, I do not consider my karate any more real than the local clubs which cater to children and competition fighting. I suspect my students would win if it came down to a street fight or a full contact competition, but that does not make our karate any more "real"; it just means we have practised for that scenario. In the same sense I do not think my students would necessarily do all that well against the local MMA Gym fighters in a cage match; because we do not train for cage matches. You fight how you train, and you train for what you expect to face.

I have been told my Shorin-Ryu is not "real" because I incorporate grappling into my kihon-waza, and our line practice is usually 80% with a partner, and 20% against the air or with hand weights. Our basics consist of around a half traditional percussive and receiving techniques, and a third body-to-body techniques, and the remainder Ne Waza. Because this does not match expectations of tradional Okinawan Karate; it has not been called "authentic". It is one of those things that is in the eye of the beholder. I evolve my karate as I learn more, and my students grow.

[sensei8]

Karate only becomes fake when those practising it lack sincerity; when they make a claim about what they practice which is not grounded in reality.

If you claim to teach karate as self-defence, and then neglect practical self-defence considerations then that is "fake" Karate. If you claim to teach karate as a sport, but ignore sport science, fitness, and competition practice then that is "Fake" karate. If you call your karate traditional but do not practice Hojo Undo, and the other marks of historical practice then that is "Fake" karate.

So long as what your claims about your karate, and what you actually do, are one in the same; it is real. I am a hard teacher; full-contact is an aspect of what I teach, as is Hojo-Undo. However, I do not consider my karate any more real than the local clubs which cater to children and competition fighting. I suspect my students would win if it came down to a street fight or a full contact competition, but that does not make our karate any more "real"; it just means we have practised for that scenario. In the same sense I do not think my students would necessarily do all that well against the local MMA Gym fighters in a cage match; because we do not train for cage matches. You fight how you train, and you train for what you expect to face.

I have been told my Shorin-Ryu is not "real" because I incorporate grappling into my kihon-waza, and our line practice is usually 80% with a partner, and 20% against the air or with hand weights. Our basics consist of around a half traditional percussive and receiving techniques, and a third body-to-body techniques, and the remainder Ne Waza. Because this does not match expectations of tradional Okinawan Karate; it has not been called "authentic". It is one of those things that is in the eye of the beholder. I evolve my karate as I learn more, and my students grow.

Solid post, through and through!!

It's hurtful to be labeled non-traditional/non-authentic just because we've adopted outside influences to improve our own MA betterment. After all, the core of what we've trained in for so long, is still there. That which is still there is still traditional/authentic. Change is inevitable, and from time to time, that changes has to be embraced.

Just who was elected to the assumed position of Master of Everything; whereas, that, whichever it is that they do, is perfectly alright, and whereas, that, whichever it is that we do, is perfectly wrong.

I'll listen to what the floor says because it's at least honest in its evaluation(s)!!

[MatsuShinshii]

I have been told my Shorin-Ryu is not "real" because I incorporate grappling into my kihon-waza, and our line practice is usually 80% with a partner, and 20% against the air or with hand weights. Our basics consist of around a half traditional percussive and receiving techniques, and a third body-to-body techniques, and the remainder Ne Waza. Because this does not match expectations of tradional Okinawan Karate; it has not been called "authentic". It is one of those things that is in the eye of the beholder. I evolve my karate as I learn more, and my students grow.

Whoever is telling you that your Shorin Ryu is not real doesn't actually understand old school Suidi (Shurite) which is what Shorin Ryu was born from.

Suidi contained grappling. Tegumi (a culmination of Okinawan wrestling and Shuai Jiao) was and still is practiced within old school styles of Todi (Karate). Tuidi (Tuite/Torite) which incorporates Qin Na (Chin Na) grappling was and still is practiced in old school Karate (To-Di).

Yes many that do not understand or know the original techniques/applications found within the Kata will substitute with Jujutsu/Judo/Hapkido/Aikido/Etc. but they are more or less staying with in the original concept of old school Karate (I hesitate to use the word Karate because this word equates to modern rather than old school).

Are they original? No. But the thing most modern day Karateka do not understand is that what the founders passed down was for all intensive purposes the first mixed martial art and incorporated more than just Kihon, Kata and Kumite.

Side Bar - I think I need to clarify the last statement. They do not understand that old school Suidi Kata taught the practitioners how to fight. It contained more than just the movements and contrary to modern day beliefs, it was not utilized as meditation in motion or as just a means to learn how to move and to strengthen the legs. It contained many postures for which each represented many applications and still does which also consisted of the same or similar grappling applications that you are teaching.

Suidi was made up of Ti'gwa which was a culmination of the indigenous percussive art of Ti (Hand) and Muay Boran which was the predecessor of Muay Thai, several Quan Fa arts to include Crane, Five Ancestor, Five Animal, Monk, Wudang, etc. which also incorporated Qin Na, Shuai Jiao and Dim Mak. Qin Na incorporated into Tuidi, Shuai Jiao into Tegumi and Dim Mak into Kyusho. All of which are found within the Kata.

If you are utilizing Jujutsu, Aikido or Judo techniques (throws, sweeps, take downs, etc.) you are actually not far off.

Many of the grappling techniques are similar and in some cases identical to the ones utilized in these arts. Some say this is because they all derive from Shuai Jiao (which is rumored to have been spead throughout the asian world to include Japan) and others say that this is due to Matsumura studying Kenjutsu under the Satsuma clan. Just like the Okinawans and Chinese empty hand arts were practiced with the weapons arts. This was due to the fact that these arts were taught to the military of the time. It is thought that Matsumura also learned the grappling art of the time which I have been told was Jujutsu but this may not be correct. Either way the techniques are too similar to be just a coincidence.

Ne Waza - even though there was not such a word then was also incorporated via Suai Jiao's ground techniques. So again even though these may not be the original applications you are staying within the realm of what is taught within the old school (original Suidi or To-Di) arts.

I would venture to say that the ones that are condemning you for not being strict to Kihon, Kumite and Kata have not the first clue of what they are talking about. For Modern Karate I would say yes they are correct that you are outside of what they perceive as traditional. However their definition of traditional does not describe what is truly traditional and came before their traditions.

Let comments like that fall off of you like rain on a slicker. Trying to explain what traditional is would be akin to banging your head against a concrete wall. You just will not get through.

If you are brought up thinking something is right, others are very hard pressed to get you to see another way. For all intensive purposes, they are not wrong. If you look at the history of Karate from it's inception. (meaning when Suidi or To-Di changed to Karate) they are correct in thinking that it's traditional. Because for their art, the minute it became Karate it also became traditional in the sense that they had formed new traditions and new methods. So you I guess you could say they are right. But who cares? Teach what you want to teach and let the naysayers say whatever they wish to. It neither effects you or your students.