The question of belts and grades

[Spartacus Maximus]

Ever since judo introduced the coloured belt system it has been widely adopted by countless systems and martial arts. Belts and grades are now one of the most ubiquitous and recognizable features of martial arts by the public at large.

Is it possible or even feasible to reduce to a minimum or to completely do away with belts? Do students and prospective students need them and are they absolutely necessary as an evaluation system within a dojo or governing body?

If one were to offer teaching an Eastern martial arts system where technical skills and knowledge were the only way to differentiate between students, how would that be received? Is is really so inconceivable to teach or practise karate(or any East Asian MA) without any belts or grades other than instructor and student?

What about returning to the earlier grades of white-brown-black with a few years between each?

[The Pred]

Adults yes, kids not so much.

[JR 137]

Many Chinese systems don't use belts. I'm pretty sure there are more that don't use them than those that do.

In a strictly yes or no answer to the question of if they're needed, the answer is no. The larger the school becomes, the more necessary IMO. If you have 400 students and 10 instructors all teaching at different days and times, it's tough to know exactly where a student is in the curriculum if he/she's not a regular in your class. It reminds me of when I tested last time - I thought it was going to be just me. In walks a 15 year old girl I've never seen before testing for her brown belt. She had no idea who I was either. We've never been in the dojo at the same time. What if instead of being a student, I was teaching that night? I could work with it, but just looking at the belt immediately tells me how critical to be, who to pair her up with, what material I should expect her to know, etc. Keep in mind there's about 40 students total in my dojo.

Not having belts can drive students away too. You may lose out on a few students who'll become very good students. Just because the belt thing attracts them initially doesn't mean they won't grow to see it's not anything magical like they thought it was.

Belts are a good thing. They can make things easier for a teacher, they can motivate beginners (and even experienced students who shouldn't need that motivation), they can help signify leaders of the school, and so on.

While they're not necessary for me nor my training, I still like them. I'd rather have them than not, but I certainly wouldn't walk away if I didn't. They briefly motivate me when I'm ready to promote; I look forward to the test and to learning new material. They help me focus on where I am currently and where I want to be by X date. I don't care about the new belt itself nor what color/level it is, I care about the process of earning it (if that makes sense).

If you're contemplating keeping them or getting rid of them, put yourself in the mindset of your average target kyu students.

[DWx]

The question I would ask is why would you want to do away with kyu belts? What are the benefits of a 2 belt or no belt system?

We shouldn't stick with the old ways just because its tradition. To do so is to stagnate.

[bushido_man96]

Ah, a very good topic for discussion.

Ever since judo introduced the coloured belt system it has been widely adopted by countless systems and martial arts. Belts and grades are now one of the most ubiquitous and recognizable features of martial arts by the public at large.

Is it possible or even feasible to reduce to a minimum or to completely do away with belts? Do students and prospective students need them and are they absolutely necessary as an evaluation system within a dojo or governing body?

This would be tough, especially with the NGBs out there. I believe with TKD, especially Olympic, a black belt rank is required for competition. This would have to be written out somehow to get rid of rank.

Do I think an evaluation system is necessary? No, I don't think so, but you need some other way of determining skill level, ability, etc. In wrestling, this is done through competition. If you do away with ranks, what will the evaluation criteria? Also, does this change when and how you learn or teach certain material?

If one were to offer teaching an Eastern martial arts system where technical skills and knowledge were the only way to differentiate between students, how would that be received? Is is really so inconceivable to teach or practise karate(or any East Asian MA) without any belts or grades other than instructor and student?

What about returning to the earlier grades of white-brown-black with a few years between each?

I don't think it would be a bad thing, but I think it would end up meaning a lot of people wouldn't be able to feel as important as they would like to in regards to their ranks and positions (not everyone is like this, but I've seen a fair share of it in the MA world).

[MatsuShinshii]

The question I would ask is why would you want to do away with kyu belts? What are the benefits of a 2 belt or no belt system?

We shouldn't stick with the old ways just because its tradition. To do so is to stagnate.

I can't speak for others but when I started we had a white belt and a black belt. Later we added a brown belt and still later added a yellow, blue and green belt.

The brown belt was adopted a month after I graded for Ikkyu and to be honest I never missed out on having the rainbow system of belts.

The goal then was to perfect the techniques and kata taught not to get to the next color belt. I personally miss the lack of multiple belts. I think it takes away from the revisiting of previous lessons. When there is no colors you are just learning the art instead of learning the next belt requirements. So there is no tendency to move on and forget what you have already learned.

Again I can not speak for anyone else but for me, I don't see the benefit of having all of those belts. My old association had 6 colors but to this day I only use four. I took Matsubayashi Ryu years ago and adopted their belt structure of white, green, brown, black. I don't really see the need for more than four colors and personally would go back to two if my students wouldn't have a hissy fit.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The "students having a hissy fit" is precisely what inspired this topic. The whole concept of the belt system is synonymous with martial arts that it has become very difficult to imagine not having it. People in the martial arts and the public expect belts.

There is no doubt that doing away with belts would be like heresy to many and it would certainly mean less people starting. Dojos with few belts are few and far between even in Okinawa and Japan. Most heads of styles and governing bodies based there have several kyu and colours.

When one is used to the rainbow of belts, it can be somewhat of a shock or surprise to make the change. Having fewer grades and belts takes the focus away from that and back to skill development and improvement. Belt or no belt, dogi or e everyday clothes, either one can or cannot.

[sensei8]

Interesting topic, thanks for starting it Spartacus Maximus!!

Ever since judo introduced the coloured belt system it has been widely adopted by countless systems and martial arts. Belts and grades are now one of the most ubiquitous and recognizable features of martial arts by the public at large.

This topic, as well as its countless discussions over the eons of time, is without a definitive answer because practitioners are as varied in their answers as the mighty rushing wind. Opinions are what the MA thrives for because without opinions, practitioners of the MA are akin to a robot; without thought and/or reasoning.

Often times, the creation of the ranking system, is nothing more then the bane of existence with a CI. Rank achieved is rank earned, and never expected. Or at least that's how it should be. Rank is coveted, however, the higher the rank, the more rank is coveted, as though rank is all that the MA is good for.

Any MAist that's been on the floor for some time, know how the ranking system came about, but as I learned a long time ago, change isn't always good, however, it's inevitable, and that's because man seeks acceptance over knowledge.

I long for the day when rank is put into its place. Not as the most sought after prize, but as some sort of signal, and/or mark, of ones knowledge/experience!! I fear that that will never happen in my life, or therefore after either.

Be careful with what it is that you create Mr. Kano; it might bite you back in the long run!! That which can't be controlled is that which just might run you over; just like an out of control freight train. Rolling forward so fast, and so dangerous, as its brakes, in the hopes of slowing it down, fail because the initial intent has been contaminated.

Is it possible or even feasible to reduce to a minimum or to completely do away with belts?

Anything is possible; nothings without hope!!

The ranking system is so much ingrained in the MA world, or the world, as well as in Man, that for the ranking system to not exist, might be quite shock to ones senses, in which, that type of reality might not sit so well with the masses. To minimize the ranking system might have the very same affect, however, imho, the minimizing of the ranking system is more doable than wiping it off the MA landscape.

The horror, or the beauty, depending on whom one asks, is that is controlled, for the most part, by the Governing Body. Sure, competitive events of the MA, like the Olympics can have their requirements for whatever the reason(s) might or might not be. Therefore, to cast away the ranking system entirely would cause competitive events some troubles some how and some way. Nonetheless, the WKF is that model of striping away rank on an outside identifier, in which, Red and Blue belts are the only belt colors, as if to say that Red is competitor 'A'/'1' and Blue is competitor 'B'/'2'.

Do students and prospective students need them and are they absolutely necessary as an evaluation system within a dojo or governing body?

No! No one needs them[belts/Ranking]! Is it an acceptable method for the CI as well as its instructors to quickly, at a glance, know something about that student. Of course, CI's should know, and will know, a students knowledge/experience within mere minutes, if not seconds, once said student is on the floor. The only thing absolute about the MA is that a practitioners journey has a start and an end; anything else is uncertain.

Dojo's might have more leniency than Governing Bodies in this regard, however, both are not without their pitfalls. Pride, in both, comes before the fall, or better said, pride is the root of all evil. Ego is the fuel that feeds that pride.

If one were to offer teaching an Eastern martial arts system where technical skills and knowledge were the only way to differentiate between students, how would that be received?

There's a saying, that goes something like this...if one wants tomatoes, one will have to go to a tomato vendor, and not to the carpenter!! Whatever the school or the Governing Body decrees, that is what will be...period!! Rules of either aren't up for debates and/or discussions by its Student Body.

You want to learn this style of the MA, then one must do what that CI, and/or Governing Body demands. If not, which is ones right, walk away from it as fast as ones feet can carry them away! Impressions can be everything or nothing at all...at the same time.

Is is really so inconceivable to teach or practise karate(or any East Asian MA) without any belts or grades other than instructor and student?

I don't need anything but the student!! I don't need a gi!! I don't need a belt!! I don't patches!! I don't need rank!! I just need a student, and a place to teach, whether it be inside or outside!!

What about returning to the earlier grades of white-brown-black with a few years between each?

That's been discussed over the eons between MA all over the world, and for myself, I yearn for that day to be a widely acceptable practice, without reservation, whatsoever!!

As mentioned already in this topic, for children, the myriad of belts might be more acceptable across the board; anything that helps to motivate said child, and of course, that child would need a CI that can teach the positiveness of the rank system.

Albeit, I believe that a child would do fine with a three belt system. That again depends on the CI and how the three rank system is presented. I'm of the mindset that says that rank, as a marketing tool, is destructive. How? One will hate one Master, while loving the other Master; knowledge is the only Master that a student should seek!! Is rank the Master of that student, or is knowledge the Master of that student?? Either way, then why??

As long as students of the MA accept the status quo of the belt ranking system obediently without ambiguity, and we students do have a choice, then any future positive changes that looms just over the distant horizon shall be just that...out of reach.

[MatsuShinshii]

The "students having a hissy fit" is precisely what inspired this topic. The whole concept of the belt system is synonymous with martial arts that it has become very difficult to imagine not having it. People in the martial arts and the public expect belts.

There is no doubt that doing away with belts would be like heresy to many and it would certainly mean less people starting. Dojos with few belts are few and far between even in Okinawa and Japan. Most heads of styles and governing bodies based there have several kyu and colours.

When one is used to the rainbow of belts, it can be somewhat of a shock or surprise to make the change. Having fewer grades and belts takes the focus away from that and back to skill development and improvement. Belt or no belt, dogi or e everyday clothes, either one can or cannot.

Understood and I agree that in some respects it is too late to start over or make a huge change without loosing some or most of our students.

I was certainly not suggesting that I would go through with this but I do in fact think that going back to the two belt system would improve the competency of our students and produce better martial artists.

To me belts are the goal for most students due to ego. Again when I was coming up the goal was to perfect and absorb everything that was learned. Rather than concentrating just on the level you are in, you concentrated on all of what had been and was being taught.

I just feel that it made better all around students and IMHO I feel that students actually progressed with more skill and knowledge than they do today. This I believe is why instructors have to harp on students to return to the basics. It is human nature in some to be lazy, if you will, any only concentrate on what they are being taught rather than to go back and practice what had been taught. Some feel this is a waste of time or they feel that they should not need to practice something that a test told them they had some degree of competency in. I see it every day even though I only use four belts. Once the next level is achieved the previous level is almost all but forgotten.

"How fast can I climb to the top" or "Now I want to have that" is the normal mentality today. If belts were not in the picture the student would strive to perfect the techniques and applications taught rather than racing to the next belt so they can look cool or show off to their friends.

Again just my 2 cents on the subject.

[LLLEARNER]

This is an interesting discussion.

My daughter has been asking about her next stripe. I told her she needed to ask Sensei. I knew what the answer would be, but I wanted her to work up the courage to ask. She finally did. He told her that asking about your next rank is not allowed. But, I was proud that she worked up the courage to ask. Then I explained why he has that rule and she understood. Not bad for a 5 year old.