Where did the Karate stances for punching originate from?

[sensei8]

Stances in Karate, whether they be in Kata or Kihon or Kumite, are tools, and tools alone, and in that, they'll change to fit the moment at hand. We're adapted creatures by fault!! If one way doesn't feel right, we'll change in order that it does.

Stances, no matter how taught or learned or what have you, are necessary if one's got to stand up and transition here to there, and so on and so forth. When we're drilling, our stances are so and thus, and we accept them for what they are. However, outside of that, stances are meant to be reevaluated from time to time by that practitioner alone. After all, no ones instructor moves you or fights for you or whatever...no...you have to do it all by yourself!!

I wholeheartedly concur with LeighSimmsMA post; makes a lot of quality points!

Thanks for the support!

I think you have made an important but above but I am not sure if I understood you correctly . I think you are trying to say that use of stances should be internalised by the individual so they understand and become comfortable with how their own bodies move?

Yes, that's what I'm saying, even though I said it poorly. I didn't want to get way too technical, as I have a habit of doing just that. Sorry!!

[Prototype]

In the Kata that is..It does not reflect how I or any assailant would attack with a punch. Ones body would never be positioned in that way, so why do we train in it?

The same when applied in bunkai.

Anybody knows?

In terms of applying stances in bunkai and I can only speak for myself (obviously ), I think the use of stances in Karate as a whole is greatly misunderstood. I refer you to two quotes. First from from Gichin Funakoshi's nijukun (20 precepts): - "Kamae wa shoshinsha ni ato wa shizentai" (fixed positions are for beginners. Later, one moves naturally) and secondly from Genwa Nakasone on his understanding of the above precept: - "Karate has many stances; it also has none.

Leigh

If that's the case then why are the stances the same for one step sparring demonstrations between masters? And why aren't the higher level Katas with different stances?

[LeighSimmsMA]

In the Kata that is..It does not reflect how I or any assailant would attack with a punch. Ones body would never be positioned in that way, so why do we train in it?

The same when applied in bunkai.

Anybody knows?

In terms of applying stances in bunkai and I can only speak for myself (obviously ), I think the use of stances in Karate as a whole is greatly misunderstood. I refer you to two quotes. First from from Gichin Funakoshi's nijukun (20 precepts): - "Kamae wa shoshinsha ni ato wa shizentai" (fixed positions are for beginners. Later, one moves naturally) and secondly from Genwa Nakasone on his understanding of the above precept: - "Karate has many stances; it also has none.

Leigh

If that's the case then why are the stances the same for one step sparring demonstrations between masters? And why aren't the higher level Katas with different stances?

If that's the case then why are the stances the same for one step sparring demonstrations between masters?

Because they are using/doing stances in a way that I believe is not in accordance with the way in which they were developed. Ippon Kumite (One Step Sparring) is a modern training practice and the Kata (which includes the stances that have been extracted and put the use in that practice) were designed to be used in situations of non-consensual violence and not against other Karateka. In 1908, so pre Ippon Kumite, Sensei Anko Itosu wrote that "Karate is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian".

And why aren't the higher level Katas with different stances?

I am unsure as to what you would even class as "higher level" Kata? I am going to assume, so correct me if I am wrong, that you are talking about Kata which are often taught to high Kyu Grades and Dan Grades. Looking, back at the history of Karate you will note that each Kata (or Kata series) is a stand alone system in itself. The order in which certain styles teach kata does not necessarily mean certain kata are of "higher level".

Besides, I think I did not make my point as clear as I wanted, I was not saying that Higher Level Kata would not have stances or would have different stances. In fact, all Kata practice is to be done by performing stances as best as possible and their are only so many ways to move your bodyweight and or position to legs in a way that disrupts the enemys posture.

What I was trying to say was when the applications of the kata are practiced against a partner, the beginner will be performing the stance as per the kata as they are not yet at a stage where they are understanding how to move their bodyweight naturally. However, the advanced student will be able to move naturally when performing the application practices as they understand "how to move their bodyweight".

[Dani_001]

Hey there, a Kata is a form of perfect world so to say, to look like all techniques are correct. When you are taught bunkai, especially rensoku, you will see all the "hidden" techniques within the Kata.

Okinawa really was blessed in the old days that they had no need to hide perfection in their -te styles. With South East Asia, this was not the case. You will see that in Seni- or Pencak Silat, their forms are somewhat a dance and looks breathtaking. They had to hide their techniques because their masters were being killed off. Their style is very much like Naha-te. Close range fighting that really can subdue and hurt an opponent.

I did Silat for a while but stopped because my teacher was disrespectful to me, but that's another story for another day.

I hope this answers your question.

[MatsuShinshii]

In the Kata that is..It does not reflect how I or any assailant would attack with a punch. Ones body would never be positioned in that way, so why do we train in it?

The same when applied in bunkai.

Anybody knows?

You have to understand that, as wastelander pointed out, the Kata is not Kumite. The Kata were invented to house/keep the applications and techniques within them just like a book or manual today. Each posture or sequence of postures represents one or a multitude of applications to include techniques such as striking, kicking, blocking, sweeping, brushing, redirecting, trapping, joint locks, chokes, takedowns, dislocations, vital point targeting, etc. etc. etc.

It is up to the student to take these applications and individual techniques (Kihon) and learn how to implement them into their Kumite. This can only be done by application and practice. First at a slow pace to learn how to read/anticipate the attack and then at a faster and faster pace until the body reacts without thought. The point of Kata and it's application is to build memory within the body (Muscle Memory) so that the body responds immediately.

If Kata is practiced separate from Kumite as if they are two individual methods this can/ will never be achieved. Kumite is the practice of your arts methods. If not trained this way why do it at all?

Side bar: I do not mean sport Kumite. I mean when Tori (Attacker) executes a technique, Uke (Defender, YOU) pull from the thousands of techniques and applications that you have learned through the study of the Kata(s) (Bunkai) in order to defeat their attack.

Unfortunately not many modern arts teach these methods anymore. Further more most students can practice the Kata and it's Bunkai for hours and once on the mat to engage in Kumite they revert back to more of a kickboxing or point sparring (long distance) type of fighting rather than utilizing what has been taught through the Kata and it's applications.

Just my 2 cents.

[pers]

In the Kata that is..It does not reflect how I or any assailant would attack with a punch. Ones body would never be positioned in that way, so why do we train in it?

The same when applied in bunkai.

Anybody knows?

Yes it does. Starting from kihon kata and hian shodan, downward block and stepping punch and then you have the three stepping punches.

It's all there if you look closely and break it down.

[sensei8]

You train in it because that's the methodology, as well as, the ideology of the style. It's better to train in it, than to have not ever trained in it!! Pose your question to your CI for a more clearer explanation per the style. Movements, at times, are trained in the manner that they are because a student has to learn how to properly execute said technique(s) as to the mechanical aspects of it.

Techniques seems stiff, however, over time, that robot like movements are replaced into a more smooth and effective technique(s). Can't rush the outcome; allow it to mature.

[MatsuShinshii]

I hate to point out the un-popular facts but...

Stances are natural in nature and were developed as such in To-Di (Karate). The deep or un-natural stances were developed as a means of conditioning the legs and as a means to teach one movement and transitions from one "stance" to another to beginning students.

No one fights using deep stances in real life confrontations. For one it is a weak posture and easily taken advantage of. They are merely a method to teach the student how to move and to develop the muscles needed for the art.

So to clarify; if someone attacks you and you shift to your right out of the line of attack and then you shift to the left or forward to avoid the next attack, the students body just moves effortlessly without thinking about which foot to move next and they also are able to shift and counter at the same time without thought because as previously pointed out the Kata contains these movements and stances and they are drilled into our body mechanics and thus muscle memory over years of training.

And as previously stated the higher ranks do not utilize these stances. I understand some use them but every Kodansha I have ever trained with have relaxed their stances to a more natural stance. The deep stances or rigid stances taught to Mudansha are supposed to be a way to teach them the correct body mechanics just like strikes and kicks are taught rigidly at first. The student through years/ decades of training develops greater skill and the stances relax and become more fluid and faster as does techniques such as strikes and kicks. It's the normal progression and comes with knowledge, skill and years of training.

I can tell you that I have never seen my Shinshii perform a Kata the way they are taught to students nor do I. In fact if you really want to see an example of a higher grade (Judan) perform a Kata and see how their stances compare to the way they are taught to beginners look up Hohan Soken performing Kata. If that is not relaxed, up right, natural stances that fluidly move from one to the next I don't know what is.

So in short Stances are taught the way they are to condition and teach the beginner student how to move and how to transition from one stance to the next. They are not meant to be utilized in Kumite or in a real fight. For one they are slower than natural stances and for two they are as I mentioned easily taken advantage of.