Changes that effect traditions.

[LLLEARNER]

I am not sure how much my opinion counts here. I am only a year into my MA journey at yellow in Shotokan with Judo and Jujitsu mixed in. I am far from an expert.

Allowing children and expanding your colored belts seems to go hand in hand. Children, especially young children, have a difficult time seeing the long-term. It is natural. I can see the additional belts adding motivational steps along the way. As long as they are used as tools for this purpose and not as primarily a revenue generating scheme. Yes, it would naturally generate revenue, just as allowing more people to join would. But, that is a consequence, not the primary goal.

My business sense, sys revenue is not a bad thing. It would still be possible to keep traditional grading and testing methods. Brown and higher testing or black and higher testing above the dojo level would help ensure integrity in the testing process and help prevent selling rank. It will also keep those who want to buy rank away if the process is known up front.

Any organization needs revenue and profit to survive and grow. Allowing younger participants can help with that as well as gain lifelong practitioners. But, if the goal is to keep tradition, that can be worked in as well.

Create a syllabus that must be followed to keep the branding. But, don't tell the CI who they can and cannot train nor how they teach (safety considerations aside). I don't think it would be appropriate to teach 5-year-olds chokes for instance. But, if a CI wants his place to have a strong after school program, the kids are in a healthy environment, doing healthy activities that can encourage them to continue with MA for a lifetime. There is revenue being generated, which helps the dojo and parent organization stay financially stable and growing.

Also, change is tradition.

[MatsuShinshii]

If it can be of any consolation, dinosaurs are not only found in the upper levels of senior students. When political arguments and endless discussion about how and what should be taught become unbearably tedious, there really is only one choice and that is to leave.

If that is the only way to continue training or teaching the way one was taught, it is better to go on without a governing body, association or organization. One's instructor should take priority over whatever governing body and politics. After all, do we not learn from someone because of what they teach and how they teach or just because they belong to XYZ association?

So says the mighty Karate-saurus

Agreed and thanks for the laugh, I needed it.

[MatsuShinshii]

I am not sure how much my opinion counts here. I am only a year into my MA journey at yellow in Shotokan with Judo and Jujitsu mixed in. I am far from an expert.

High rank is not needed to express ones opinion. Your opinion is just as welcome as any other.

Allowing children and expanding your colored belts seems to go hand in hand. Children, especially young children, have a difficult time seeing the long-term. It is natural. I can see the additional belts adding motivational steps along the way. As long as they are used as tools for this purpose and not as primarily a revenue generating scheme. Yes, it would naturally generate revenue, just as allowing more people to join would. But, that is a consequence, not the primary goal.

I get what you are saying, but... I follow my Shinshii's example and do not/will not teach children. To do so would mean that I would have to change the way I teach, what I teach and worse I would have to cater to their parents. I neither need the extra students nor want them. I am too old and too set in my ways to change the way I teach and what I teach.

My business sense, sys revenue is not a bad thing. It would still be possible to keep traditional grading and testing methods. Brown and higher testing or black and higher testing above the dojo level would help ensure integrity in the testing process and help prevent selling rank. It will also keep those who want to buy rank away if the process is known up front.

No it would not be possible to keep traditional grading the same as what I teach (very traditional methods) could not be taught and thus not be tested for.

Any organization needs revenue and profit to survive and grow. Allowing younger participants can help with that as well as gain lifelong practitioners. But, if the goal is to keep tradition, that can be worked in as well.

I would not expect you to know this and you may not understand this, but for me it is not about revenue, profit or added students. I own my Dojo so I do not have rent to pay. I have a full time job in which I am highly paid for so I do not need the extra cash. To me it is about giving back what was given to me. I have never needed additional students and to be honest I don't go looking for them. I presently have enough students to last me until I retire or take a dirt nap. My Hachikyu, Shechikyu and Rokkyu will be with me until I'm possibly too old to teach given our (Shinshii's testing requirements).

I also like the fact that we have always had high standards and have always been back up by Shinshii in our decisions. If a student was not worthy they would be sent packing. I like the fact that I do not depend on a specific number of students to keep my doors open. I doubt this will ever change whether I have 87 students (todays count) or whether I only have one does not matter to me as long as they are worthy and I can pass on my Shinshii's teachings and keep the art alive past my time.

To be totally honest, selling my integrity and ethics to gain more students and or cash is not within me to do. 5% of my students do not pay for lessons due to their financial situation and the rest only pay enough for me to keep the lights and water on and to help me pay for their belts and grade certificates.

Create a syllabus that must be followed to keep the branding.

I guess you missed the part where I said that the new president is doing away with our student manual. It is not up to us since he has enough votes to push this things through without any obstacles from the traditionalists.

But, don't tell the CI who they can and cannot train nor how they teach (safety considerations aside). I don't think it would be appropriate to teach 5-year-olds chokes for instance. But, if a CI wants his place to have a strong after school program, the kids are in a healthy environment, doing healthy activities that can encourage them to continue with MA for a lifetime. There is revenue being generated, which helps the dojo and parent organization stay financially stable and growing.

This hits the nail on the head. I teach old school Todi/Ti'Gwa/Karate Jutsu and no I am not willing to take things like chokes out of the curriculum. This in large part is why we only ever accepted students 16 yrs and older.

The entire curriculum would, sorry IS now being changed to suite the new student base.

I have no interest whatsoever in teaching a watered down and dumbed down version of our art just so the new president can make his pockets grow larger. The techniques we teach come straight from the Kata and they are taught as they have been passed down for centuries. What is taught is neither appropriate nor understandable to a child.

I understand what you are saying and appreciate your insights but I have already made my decision and can not/ will not turn my Dojo into a McDojo.

Also, change is tradition.

In some instances this is absolutely true but I am of the mind set that the art of Karate in most modern Dojo is not traditional but merely a watered down sport version of what it was intended to be. If this is something that students want there are thousands if not millions of schools they can go to find this. Why then would I change to become the same. My students come/stay with me because I teach what I teach. They are not concerned with winning patty cake sparring matches nor do they have a need to win trophies. Most are cops and the rest are looking to be able to actually defend themselves. Sports are great and I have nothing against those schools that have chosen to turn away from the old ways so they can win tournaments but this is just not me.

Kids are interested in achievements that can be seen. My students are concerned with personal achievements that are not on display for others to see. Most feel as I do. Personal betterment in the art is not sitting on a shelf, it's within.

[MatsuShinshii]

Well I met with my students last night and explained the situation. I told them that I would not change the way I teach and that means that I would be leaving the association.

I told them that it was their choice whether they wanted to stay with me or with the association. I explained to those students that have schools of their own that this is a great way to make more money if they felt they could teach under the presidents guidelines and I would not hold it against them or any one else if they decided to stay with the association but my time was up.

I told them to think about it and get back to me when they had made a decision. I told them if enough of them wanted to stay with the association I would personally call the president and ask him to appoint a CI for my area that all could fall under.

I took a few questions and then turned them over to my senior instructor and left the floor to wait in my office.

I was summoned back to the floor about 5 minutes latter and was told that all but 4 were leaving the association with me. 1 of the four has his own school and explained that he worried about loosing the ability to grade higher and to be able to grade his students higher (he has 24 students under him). The other three are his students that want to stay with him.

[sidebar: In my art it is traditional for three instructors to grade and place their signatures to be on a Yudansha certificate. This has always been Shinshii's and two others. However this can be circumvented as long as the instructor has the proper teaching credentials and grade.

In this case I could only promote students to Godan. You can only promote students to within two grade of the one you hold unless you are the highest instructor in the organization or unless you hold the position of Soke or some equivalent position.]

I shook all 4 of their hands and wished them good luck. I told them that my door would always be open to them should they ever choose to leave the association.

I spoke to the rest of them one last time to make sure they understood their decision. My heart was filled when I told my students that I could only bring them so far, so they may want to take some more time to reconsider their decision. They told me that the belt meant nothing compared to the knowledge. It made me realize they have been listening to me and that I had passed on a little piece of my teachers lessons.

I made a call to the president of the association and told him that I was leaving and that Tom and three of his students were staying. I recommended that he be made the CI for this area and that he extend any help that he may need.

He asked me why I would make such a brash choice? I explained that I was Shinshii's student through and through and would not teach the way that they expected me to teach. He asked me if he made an exception for me and my students would I stay. I explained that forcing any instructor to conform to his will in their own Dojo is wrong. To change the art Shinshii passed down to us is wrong. I told him that I could not wake up every day and look myself in the mirror knowing that I belonged to an organization that I have always called a McDojo.

He raised his voice and his objects at this statement. I asked him what he would call quota's, mandatory time to grade, and all of the other wacky schemes he was implementing. He said that if I did not reconsider it would adversely effect the association that I claim to love so much as many see myself and our VP as the torch carriers of Shinshii's legacy.

I don't feel good about this today but last night I let my anger boil over and said some choice words and phrases that I can not repeat here. Tp paraphrase for the forum; I told him that he has destroyed what Shinshii had left to us and that his ego and power hungry character will be the down fall of the association not me or Kosei leaving. I asked him why he did not go begging Kosei (VP) to stay. I told him that he should be ashamed of his dealings with him as he followed him when Shinshii retired and did not make him the successor. He was a true friend and you are a two faced back stabber. I told him that Kosei followed him because he felt bad that Shinshii passed him up and was worried about him enough to leave the organization he loved.

He ended up saying some pretty choice words to me as well. I caught myself and said that I had always liked him and thought at the time that Shinshii would pass the art to him but what he was doing was against everything I believe in and because of that I have no choice but to leave. I wished him the best and hung up.

My personal email filled to capacity within a few hours today. I have been asked to talk to the VP and to carry on the association as it was by most of the student body. I am going to talk to Kosei but I am not going to pretend to be the man to create an organization. If Kosei wants to do so I will join him but my political days are at an end. I have aged 20 years in the last 6 and I miss just teaching and helping others to reach their personal goals.

Not sure what he will say but if he says yes and keeps things as they are I will follow him and have told the student body as much.

So I guess I am an independent. Feels really weird. Not sure how this is going to work. I am half hoping that Kosei decides to develop a new organization as it seems we will maintain more than half of the student body which would be nice. I guess time and his decision will tell.

As for me I have very mixed feelings. On one hand I feel a great sense of loss as I feel that I have allowed Shinshii's legacy to be decimated even though I know I had nothing to do with it and had no power to stop it. On the other hand I feel like I am starting on a new journey and within that a sense of rejuvenated purpose.

[JR 137]

I feel for you. As I read it, I'm reminded of how I felt when my former sensei left his organization, and more so the look in his eyes and the choked up voice he had when he told us. I know he did the right thing for himself and just as importantly for his students. And I know you've just done the same thing. I don't admire the position you're unfortunately in, but I commend your decision.

As you said, it's the end of one journey and the beginning of a new one. Working with or without Kosei and/or anyone else will all work itself out in due time. Hopefully the relationships you had with people in the organization will as well. Only time will tell.

One thing I'm constantly reminded of in situations such as these is you can't control what anyone else says nor does; all you can do is try your best to control your reaction. What's the best reaction? To go about doing what's genuinely best for you and your students. As you said, you're now free of the nonsense you've been dealing with and can finally focus on doing what you've wanted to do all along - teaching who you want and how you know in your heart your supposed to teach it.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Even in karate's craddle dojo's or instructors who refuse outright to teach children under 16 are not very common. What is quite common, from my experience is that adults will either have their own exclusive training time where the "full" curriculum will be taught including the so called "dangerous" aspects.

Some will restrict that further and only teach those details to the most senior and trusted students. Children are usually taught only the basic punch, kick and blocks and are taught the "dirty tricks" when they reach appropriate level and maturity.

It maybe something to consider if keeping the dojo open requires income from paying parents. If not, then just go on teaching exactly what you think best lives up to the legacy of your teacher.

[LLLEARNER]

I hope I was not coming off as disrespectful. Obviously I am new here and do not know many of the ins and outs or many of the details about the people here. I also do not know the details about many art forms. I was only trying to give my view point on keeping your art alive. I was not suggesting that you take students that you feel would compromise the way you teach. I was thinking more that the organization would allow its Instructors to have the option and tools to do so. I never want to see anything become a McDojo.

[MatsuShinshii]

I hope I was not coming off as disrespectful. Obviously I am new here and do not know many of the ins and outs or many of the details about the people here. I also do not know the details about many art forms. I was only trying to give my view point on keeping your art alive. I was not suggesting that you take students that you feel would compromise the way you teach. I was thinking more that the organization would allow its Instructors to have the option and tools to do so. I never want to see anything become a McDojo.

No disrespect taken.

[MatsuShinshii]

Update:

I spoke with our old VP Friday night after getting deluged with phone calls and emails requesting that he and myself start a organization.

He told me that he also had gotten many calls and emails and had considered this before. He said he would consider starting a new organization providing that I share the responsibilities of overseeing and establishing it. After a long talk I said I would be willing to do so.

Apparently word got back to our previous association and we both received a phone call Saturday and was threatened with legal action if we moved ahead with our plans.

I am not a lawyer nor do I pretend to know the ins and outs of this type of stuff so I told Kosei to hold off until we seek legal guidance.

He told me that our old association had no legal rights to Shinshii's legacy since Shinshii did not pass down his successor-ship to him or anyone else left in the association.

Yesterday he contacted Shinshii and patched me in to the call. He explained what had transpired and that we were being threatened with legal action should we attempt to create a new organization under the same name or any name associated or close to the same name. That we could not use the student/instructor manuals as they are proprietary to the association (Not buying this as I wrote both under Shinshii's supervision to replace the outdated and incomplete one we were using).

He stated that he would back us up should we proceed with our plans. He also stated that since he did not appoint a successor he placed verbiage in our bylaws that he reserved the right to do so in the future.

I told him that he should pass this honor down to Kosei if he was thinking of doing so. Kosei opted to wait until after we spoke to our previous association with Shinshii.

He dialed up the president of our previous association and told him that Shinshii and myself were on the call. I have never heard anyone speak so rudely to Shinshii in all of my time training. He blew up when Shinshii told him he had no legal claim to his name, the name of the organization (especially since he changed it soon after he was appointed) and he had no claim to the content, curriculum, or the art itself. He explained that if he pursued legal action he would appoint either Kosei or myself as his successor and that would end all disputes and transfer all rights to the name, branding, manuals, etc. etc.

Needless to say it did not go well. Kosei told him that we would proceed with our plans and if he chose to he could seek legal action. I personally wished he would not push him along these lines as I do not wish to be caught up in legal battles but there was little I could do on the phone without giving him the impression we were divided and weak.

I contacted our lawyer who represents our old association and was told that he could not represent us do to a legal conflict but that I should contact another firm that he suggested. I did so and spoke with this man in great detail for over an hour. After the phone call I sent a copy of our old bylaws. After an hour he called me back and said we should proceed if we so chose as the bylaws were not written to give them any recourse what-so-ever.

We returned emails and phone calls to inform all that requested this that we would in fact be establishing a new organization and that it would be created with the intent of continuing Shinshii and his teachers legacy and teachings. No kids. No rainbow of Obi's. No reduced requirements. Etc., etc., etc.

As of 5 minutes before I started this post we have had a little more than half of the old student body and instructors wishing to join.

It will be a busy month as we intend and have promised to start enrollment on the last week of February. We have to write the bylaws, elect board members, retain legal counsel, start our insurance (which I have already done for my students so this will just be added), etc. etc.

I never thought so much could happen within a months time. I receive a belated grading and teaching license, quit my association and now will be starting a new organization under our old VP and with the help of 4 other instructors that have expressed an interest in helping us out.

I hope we are wise enough to do things the right way so that what happened in my old association does not happen again. We have already talked about a few things that need to be changed.

I also talked Kosei into not using our old name and branding as I think this would enter into an issue that would eventually become a legal issue. He agreed and we have come up with three new names that will be voted on once we start up. We have also altered our patch (we only wear one patch on the left chest) so as to stand apart from the old association. We do wear one other patch on our left arm after achieving Shodan or higher in Kobudo but that will not change as it would be difficult for them to come after us as this is not proprietary to their branding. We will however utilize our old manuals, both student and instructor. I reminded our old president that he openly stated that he was doing away with them and writing new so he pretty much gave up any rights (not that he had them) to the manuals. Since they were authored by me and Shinshii and only myself, Kosei and Shinshii appear in the pictorials of Kata, Tuidi, Tegumi, Kyusho, Hojo-Undo, Ti'Gwa, Buki'Gwa, etc. there is nothing to point to for them to claim ownership. At least this is what our new lawyer is telling us.

So all's well that ends well. What a month!

If anyone has been through something similar and has experience with restructuring and can give advise, so as to not repeat history, it would be very welcome. I am in un-charter territory and do not claim to understand all that goes into this process. Our lawyer says he can walk us through this but I am more worried about the pit falls that he may not think of.

Any and all advise is welcomed.

[The Pred]

Very interesting, hope your new organization works out.