General Tian Bubishi

[David Nisan]

Thank you for your kind words! It’s very encouraging.

I’m sure you have much to add too.

David

[David Nisan]

Henning Wittwer informed me of a karate kata called “Pressing the throat” (“nodo-osae” 咽抑).

Two videos on YouTube deal with this kata.

1)Practical Kata Bunkai: Reconstructing Gichin Funakoshi’s Nodo-Osae Throw

2) Practical Kata Bunkai: ‘Blue dragon strikes’, Nodo-Osae and Ebi-Gatame combination

For some reason I cannot post a direct link.

Take a look!

[MatsuShinshii]

David,

I was speaking of Hohan Soken. He did not join as some others did not join at that time.

My Shinshii explained to me that at this time most felt compelled to join as the Japanese were spreading the art worldwide and had put in place rules, rankings, teaching credentials, etc. and that most thought if they did not join this would effect there legitimacy and standings with in this ever growing machine.

They had good reason to believe this as some people today still think Karate is Japanese.

[MatsuShinshii]

Absolutely no reason to apologize. I did not take offense. Debate, opinions and discussions are what this is all about.

I appreciate that we all can come here and discuss views and topics even if they differ.

I understand that in posts, just like emails, tones and intentions can be taken wrong. In business I am very careful to watch how I write. Here I just start writing and do not give it much thought as this is a more relaxing atmosphere compared to the business world.

If I gave you the impression I was upset by your post I apologize, but this was not my intention.

I look at this as a way to broaden knowledge, maybe pass on a little knowledge and read other view points. Whether I agree with those views or not matters little as I appreciate the fact that I learn something.

I think this is a case of me saying what came to mind without proof reading to see how it would be taken. No harm, no foul.

[David Nisan]

I was speaking of Hohan Soken

He is very famous, and I appreciate his integrity.

I understand that in posts, just like emails, tones and intentions can be taken wrong. In business I am very careful to watch how I write. Here I just start writing and do not give it much thought as this is a more relaxing atmosphere compared to the business world.

I look at this as a way to broaden knowledge, maybe pass on a little knowledge and read other view points. Whether I agree with those views or not matters little as I appreciate the fact that I learn something.

I like your attitude and greatly appreciate it. It's a pleasure to meet someone like you on the Way.

Let me ask you two things here: is it possible that we are over-conditioned by our nationalist age and instead of seeing Chinese and Okinawan martial arts as belonging to one family we are to concerned with the nationality of those martial arts?

and, you say that Karate is the father of MMA. I am not against it. But if the founder of karate were looking for a martial Way? Is it possible that they were not thinking only about effective ways to finish an opponent but also on a martial art that would help them achieve the Way?

Merry Christmas MatsuShinshii

Pleasure conversing with you!

[MatsuShinshii]

I was speaking of Hohan Soken

He is very famous, and I appreciate his integrity.

I understand that in posts, just like emails, tones and intentions can be taken wrong. In business I am very careful to watch how I write. Here I just start writing and do not give it much thought as this is a more relaxing atmosphere compared to the business world.

I look at this as a way to broaden knowledge, maybe pass on a little knowledge and read other view points. Whether I agree with those views or not matters little as I appreciate the fact that I learn something.

I like your attitude and greatly appreciate it. It's a pleasure to meet someone like you on the Way.

Let me ask you two things here: is it possible that we are over-conditioned by our nationalist age and instead of seeing Chinese and Okinawan martial arts as belonging to one family we are to concerned with the nationality of those martial arts?

and, you say that Karate is the father of MMA. I am not against it. But if the founder of karate were looking for a martial Way? Is it possible that they were not thinking only about effective ways to finish an opponent but also on a martial art that would help them achieve the Way?

Merry Christmas MatsuShinshii

Pleasure conversing with you!

Very interesting observation. As I can see similarities, I would personally not agree with one family. In my way of thinking they are two distinct MA's.

My reasoning would be that the Okinawan arts are very crisp, sharp, and in terms of Chinese arts, very rigid comparatively.

Although I see where you are going, I don't know if I can agree as there are very much distinct and both have their nuances that highlight their nationality.

Well as I see it, Karate was one of the first arts that incorporated or as people like to say today, "cross train" in multiple arts. This is why I think it's safe for me to say that it's the first MMA. Just my personal opinion.

I do not reject the "Way/Do" in Karate. However I come from a traditional back ground and have researched my art for well over 25 years and have come to the conclusion that it was not intended to be a "Do" art but rather a "Jutsu" (to use familiar Japanese terminology) art.

I have no issue with the spiritual context and incorporate it myself into training. I do however have an issue with most modern Dojo changing the very nature of what the art was created for to make it a 80 - 100% "Do" art.

I personally feel that we have strayed away from what the true intent of the art was. This has happened for many reasons and many have taken part in this change. Itosu, Funakoshi, the Butokokai (I hope I spelled that right) and westerners mystified with all things Japanese have all taken part in subtle to down right complete changes in not only the way it is taught but also within the very curriculum of the art.

Now days we find a void in the understanding of the art because of these changes. The so called "Hidden" techniques, which are not hidden at all and were taught to worthy students, were rejected by many due to the combative/deadly nature and replaced with what we might consider gentler methods and techniques. This leads to the absence of understanding of ones art and it's techniques.

This has lead to the need for others to teach Bunkai as most do not know their arts applications. Mr. Abernathy is a prime example of someone that see's the void and is attempting to fill it. Although I do not subscribe to all of his methods and applications, he is just one place that many go to try to understand the true intent. My personal opinion only, but I think this is sad that there is a need to learn applications and meanings outside of ones own art.

I guess what I am getting at is this... I do not have an issue per-say with incorporating "Do" into the art if it is done as an add rather than a replacement. However if it is done as a replacement for those techniques and methodologies that represent the true intent of the art, then yes I would reject it wholeheartedly.

I have grown up in the art understanding that Karate was created as a combative art not a peaceful art as Japanese proponents would have us believe.

It's ok to say it's for self defense but it's down right taboo for someone to call it what it is. So I guess I'm not very politically correct.

It was passed down in a day and age when one may have to kill in order to live. The fact that I do not live in this time does not escape me but this is what it was created for and thus applications are descriptive of these methods if not removed or forgotten.

If only 3/4 of the art is taught then it's not the complete art and the totality of the art is lost. This is what I believe.

I know I'm old and grew up in a different time than some and due to this I may be set in my ways and have strong opinions but I can see your point of view and appreciate where you are coming from. I hope that you can see where I am coming from as well. My way is just one of millions of ways. It works for me but may not work for others or may even seem foreign.

Having said this, I will also say that I can see the wisdom in others opinions here on KF and have learned a lot. I can not say it necessarily has changed my point of view entirely but it has made me think. This is what I love about KF and the reason I decided to join. Differences can be discussed and this gives us a chance to learn from those outside of our own arts or Dojo's. I enjoy the chance to discuss topics such as this with Karate-Ka like yourself.

Merry Christmas to you and yours as well sir.

It's always a pleasure to converse with a fellow Karate-ka.

[David Nisan]

Thank you for your reply!

I think that what you say is important on many levels, but maybe more so in that you made me realize that some people associate “Do” with a combatively watered-down form of karate. That is not what I meant. Karate should be intense, as far as I am concerned. And it was intense, even in times when it was naturally a Do-practice.

Now let me explain: Do, has many meanings. In the (ordinary) martial arts context it means moral self-cultivation. That is the Confucian Way.

Confucianism, from its very beginning, was not a philosophy per-se. It did include specific “philosophical” ideas but put huge emphasis on practice (and practices). In fact, it has been argued quite convincingly that that which distinguished Confucians from other early “philosophers” such as Daoists, was their practices (not thought). Ancestor worship, for example, was one such practice, and it had to perform in a prescribed and precise manner. It was part of the Confucian Way, the Confucian program for self-cultivation.

Practice-based moral self-cultivation then was fundamental to all East Asian culture. In fact, it is one of its defining characteristics. Thus, and here I politely disagree with you. Confucius, or Confucianism, had created a space in East Asian culture for the creation of such practices as martial arts (in general) and karate in particular.

Thus, we have no choice in the matter; we do not “add” or don’t “add” Do to karate. And neither did karate teachers of the past. For, as I explained, it was such a given aspect of East Asian culture that people absorbed it at home, at schools, at the local temple—it was everywhere. Do was, in other words, an integral part of karate form its very inception. Karate (fundamentally, a sort of practice) then was added to the Confucian repertoire of self-cultivation practices.

And here we get to the pint of intensity: if your goal is moral self-cultivation you would want to create intensity strong enough to challenge, and continue challenging, your integrity, your composure, your spirit.

And this is what I meant—MMA means that martial research is done for the purpose of defeating others. But if you care about intensity, techniques and methods matter less. You can see it in Aikido—its techniques are problematic for self-defense etc., but they are suitable for the creation of (martial) intensity.

Best

David

[David Nisan]

We find, then, that if one is committed to “Do”, if one wishes to pursue moral self-cultivation, then he has to aspire for an intense form of karate.

[lowereastside]

Here I go getting myself in trouble again LOL. IMHO one must look beyond the martial aspects and look at the social and political climate of China in the 1800's. How much did the Okinawan's get from the Chinese Kung Fu Masters? How much was changed by the Okinawan's? and so on.........

1st - back in the day even in China to learn Kung Fu was not an easy task. Kung Fu was very secretive - if you did not belong to the same clan or village - good luck trying to get in. If one was not Hakka - good luck in trying to learn Hakka Kung Fu. If one was not Cantonese - good luck in trying to learn Cantonese Kung Fu. and so on.......

So how much chance did an outsider have in learning true Chinese Kung Fu? Or did they just get little tidbits to take back?

How much was actually put in to the Bubishi and how much was actually decoded or not decoded?

I'm Italian-American my Mom, and Dad were born in Italy. I speak read and write Italian. Let me give you an example - there is a saying in the village that my parents come from that when you go to google translate - translates " to the groom of Monday" . However what does it actually mean. On the surface one may say someone getting married on MONDAY - BUT THAT'S NOT IT.

A few years ago I received a document from my Kung Fu Teacher written in Chinese. I gave that document to a close friend - a Kung Fu Sifu who was born in Hong Kong to translate it for me. after 5 minutes my friend informed me he could not translate to document it was all in riddles - codes etc etc. When I later got together with my Teacher and told him I could not get the document translated - he just smiled. Another lesson learned off the training floor. He then began to translate each character verbally one by one with the explanations.

I hope I'm making some sort of sense out of this.

Again my 3 cents.

[David Nisan]

"IMHO one must look beyond the martial aspects and look at the social and political climate of China in the 1800's. How much did the Okinawan's get from the Chinese Kung Fu Masters? "

You are exactly right! This is exactly what we did in The Bubishi in Chinese Martial Arts History.

We wanted karateka to have a better understanding as to what was important to their karate ancestors and why. We wanted them to able to tell, on their own, what of the old traditions should be retained, what should be let go of, and what should be regained. For karate was not limited to fighting, but constituted a unique field of knowledge, which included philosophy, ethics, and martial-medicine.

And this is not merely romantic talk—the ancients greatly valued philosophy and ethics and sincerely studied them. You can say that philosophy and ethics constituted another aspect of self-defense, because they offered efficient methods to dealing with other human beings in society.

Martial-medicine also served as self-defense: with martial-medical knowledge one could make a living and also treat and heal those whom he injured (injuring another person was a serious offense). But, and this is important for modern practitioners, it created a link between martial arts and China’s various meditative and qi-cultivation traditions. In other words, martial-medicine facilitated access to a huge filed of knowledge, knowledge which enriched not only their martial practice but their entire being.

“back in the day even in China to learn Kung Fu was not an easy task. Kung Fu was very secretive”

You are right again. And this is a proof that the authors of the Bubishi had intimate connection with chines masters. If they did not have an intimate relationship, i.e. if they did not really study with Chinese teachers, they would not have access to the knowledge they recorded down.

“How much was actually put in to the Bubishi and how much was actually decoded or not decoded?”

Right again! We cannot tell exactly how much of their knowledge was recorded down. Some of it was encoded, for sure, and we point out those sections, but not all of the Bubishi is encoded. And those plainly-written sections allow us to gauge the minds of its authors and tell us much about the art they actually practiced.