General Tian Bubishi

[David Nisan]

https://i.imgsafe.org/365b823e44.jpg

Hi guys, I hope that by following this link you can see this beautiful illustration of a two-men martial drill.

This two men-drill is taken from a newly published Bubishi (with permission from the publisher, of course). It was most probably created by Ryukyuans who were learning gongfu in Fuzhou City, Fujian, from about the middle to end of the 19th century.

The writing on the illustration says:

青龍出抓手勝 qinglong chu zhuashou sheng

Blue Dragon sends out his claws (lit. grabbing hand) and wins

丹鳳朝陽手敗 danfeng zhaoyangshou bai

Cinnabar (=red) Phoenix [uses the] Sun-Facing Hand (=an upwards going attack) and loses

This martial manual, Bubishi, was created by Ryukyuans who trained in Fuzhou City, Fujian, in the late 19th century. “Blue Dragon sends out his claws” and “Cinnabar Phoenix [uses the] Sun-Facing Hand” are names of techniques. Does anybody know of karate styles which still use these names?

Thanks!

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[Spartacus Maximus]

Chinese systems are known for their flowery and poetic imagery for describing techniques, concepts and key points. There is much verifiable evidence that Chinese systems or at least parts of these were indeed taught in Okinawa and thus influenced the development of the Okinawan systems which became known as karate.

However it is clear that the imagery and poetic descriptions commonly found in Chinese martial arts culture is not as extensive, if at all present in Okinawan karate. There is some imagery but is far less abstract than the Chinese terms found in the Bubishi.

[David Nisan]

You bring up a very interesting point!

It is interesting because Ryukyuans from the king to the poorest Ryukyuan peasants admired China. The nobility admired China enough to send its sons to study there, to receive (what the nobility considered) education of the highest quality; and karate giants such as Higaonna Kanryō and Uechi Kanbun admired China and its martial arts so much that they made great sacrifices in order to study there; and even their students admired China and its martial arts, for did not Miyagi Chojun admire the Bubishi? Didn’t he name his style after a line of the Bubishi?

Yet you argue that imagery, which is one of the most recognizable characteristic of Chinese martial writings, is not often employed in karate. If this is accurate then we must ask-- if Ryukyuans (and later Okinawans) admired China and its martial arts so much then why didn’t they retain that imagery? And furthermore, it seems that this change (from flowery-imagery to non-flowery) took place the minute Chinese martial arts reached the Ryukyus. How can we explain that?

[MatsuShinshii]

You bring up a very interesting point!

It is interesting because Ryukyuans from the king to the poorest Ryukyuan peasants admired China. The nobility admired China enough to send its sons to study there, to receive (what the nobility considered) education of the highest quality; and karate giants such as Higaonna Kanryō and Uechi Kanbun admired China and its martial arts so much that they made great sacrifices in order to study there; and even their students admired China and its martial arts, for did not Miyagi Chojun admire the Bubishi? Didn’t he name his style after a line of the Bubishi?

Yet you argue that imagery, which is one of the most recognizable characteristic of Chinese martial writings, is not often employed in karate. If this is accurate then we must ask-- if Ryukyuans (and later Okinawans) admired China and its martial arts so much then why didn’t they retain that imagery? And furthermore, it seems that this change (from flowery-imagery to non-flowery) took place the minute Chinese martial arts reached the Ryukyus. How can we explain that?

It is a common misconception that is pointed out by non-Okinawan Karate practitioners that Karate does not resemble Quan Fa (Gung Fu) because it's techniques are crisp and the kata are not identical to the Quan.

However there is an easy explanation for this. IMHO Okinawans are not Chinese. Karate was called Toudi (Tode) before the Japanese coined the term Karate. This is because Quan Fa influenced the art to a great extent.

However one must also realize that the Okinawan's had their own form of combative techniques called Ti'Gwa. This some say is a result of Siam boxers visiting/trading with Ryukyu and teaching Muay Boran or the predecessor to Muay Thai.

One has only to look at a Kata to realize that it is made up of several parts. Its not Chinese, although some are predominately influenced by Quan Fa. It's not all Ti'Gwa, although it can be seen through out the Kata.

It's a mixture. To be quite honest it's the first MMA.

So why in knowing that this art was developed from the indigenous art of Ti'Gwa and Tegumi, and the many arts of Quan Fa (Five Ancestor, Five Animal, Monk Fist, Tiger and Crane [baihe], just to name a few) would anyone think that it would resemble just the Chinese martial arts?

It has elements of all.

The most important aspect is the Ryukyu people had their own methodology of fighting and in that Quan Fa was incorporated but not a replacement for it. They had their own culture and traditions. Yes influences from the Chinese and the Chinese arts are present even today but the Okinawans are a people unto themselves.

The same could be said of Japanese influences. If the Okinawans were so quick to emulate another country then all Styles and Schools of Karate would resemble Shotokan. This is not the case so there is no reason to think that they would mirror the culture of China to such an extent as to change who and what they were as a people.

Just my personal opinion.

[David Nisan]

I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm!

I practiced both Shotokan and Kyokushin. But for the last 15 years only gongfu. And I actually think that karate resembles gongfu, and in many cases not very different.

There is no doubt the Okinawans are people onto themselves. And there is no doubt that their original fighting methods influenced karate.

However, if Ryukyuan arts were as developed as Chinese gongfu, then why did Kanryō and Uechi (among others) were willing to sacrifice so much to study it? And why did they stay in China for so long? And why even their students had such a high opinion of Chinese gongfu? Why were

Kanryō and Uechi were admired for their ability, and their ability was the result of training in China, not in the Ryukyus. This was acknowledged by Ryukyuans/Okinawans themselves.

Thus, the answer may be much more prosaic. When karate giants retuned from China they probably still used Chinese imagery. But later on, when Japan became hostile to China, and a distaste to everything Chinese became prevalent, Okinawan masters had to effect some changes so as not to offend Japanese sensibilities. After all, they were promoting karate on the mainland. That is probably the main reason that they re-named techniques and forms etc. with modern Japanese names.

The interaction between Okinawan and Japanese martial arts has occurred, and is occurring, in a totally different period. It should be discussed separately. Here I’ll just say that Ryukyuans admired China, they wanted to be part of the Chinese family, so to speak. They have never shown such admiration towards Japan.

[MatsuShinshii]

I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm!

I practiced both Shotokan and Kyokushin. But for the last 15 years only gongfu. And I actually think that karate resembles gongfu, and in many cases not very different.

There is no doubt the Okinawans are people onto themselves. And there is no doubt that their original fighting methods influenced karate.

However, if Ryukyuan arts were as developed as Chinese gongfu, then why did Kanryō and Uechi (among others) were willing to sacrifice so much to study it? And why did they stay in China for so long? And why even their students had such a high opinion of Chinese gongfu? Why were

Kanryō and Uechi were admired for their ability, and their ability was the result of training in China, not in the Ryukyus. This was acknowledged by Ryukyuans/Okinawans themselves.

Thus, the answer may be much more prosaic. When karate giants retuned from China they probably still used Chinese imagery. But later on, when Japan became hostile to China, and a distaste to everything Chinese became prevalent, Okinawan masters had to effect some changes so as not to offend Japanese sensibilities. After all, they were promoting karate on the mainland. That is probably the main reason that they re-named techniques and forms etc. with modern Japanese names.

The interaction between Okinawan and Japanese martial arts has occurred, and is occurring, in a totally different period. It should be discussed separately. Here I’ll just say that Ryukyuans admired China, they wanted to be part of the Chinese family, so to speak. They have never shown such admiration towards Japan.

I understand that the relationship between when the Japanese influences and Chinese influences where at different times in maybe most cases. However both influenced the founder of my art during his life time. Matsumura studied under Chinese teachers, Ti'Gwa teachers and also studied under the Satsuma clan. Thus three influences in the same time period. Why then is our art not Chinese, Japanese or purely indigenous Okinawan fighting arts but a melding of all three? I think the answer is, like Bruce Lee's famous saying, the Okinawan masters took what was useful and combined it to make what we now know as Karate and made it unique to their culture.

I agree that the Okinawans did and may still have a very high regard for the Chinese culture and especially for the Chinese fighting arts.

I was merely pointing out that the Okinawan people had their own fighting traditions prior to the Chinese fighting arts. It is human nature to maintain their identity. Yes I agree that the Chinese traditions heavily influenced the creation of Karate.

I will bring this into the discussion for your consideration... Sakugawa was referred to as Toudi (Tode) Sakugawa because of his proficiency in the Chinese fighting arts. His student Matsumura "Bushi" Sokon had many instructors in both Ti'Gwa and Quan Fa.

Sakugawa was a Ti'Gwa expert but spent most of his life studying Quan Fa and because of that was known as an expert of the Chinese arts, so much so that his nick name was China Hand.

In knowing that, you would think that Matsumura would turn away from the Okinawan arts when he created what is now called Shuri-te or Shorin-Ryu.

This is not the case. Knowing that he studied under 7 Chinese masters [this counts Sakugawa](that we know of) and only 3 Ti'Gwa masters [also counting Sakugawa] the Chinese influence is over whelming. So why then does Shorin Ryu not resemble Quan Fa in every way?

Again I think that this is due to the fact that the Okinawan's are a proud people that utilized what was effective from each art form and combined them into something uniquely Okinawan.

Further proof is the way that we practice Kata that came directly from Chinese Quan like Seisan or Useshi or Wanduan or even the most hotly debated Hakutsuru.

Chinese practitioners will point out that they are shortened, do not completely match the original Quan or some will even say they are completely different forms.

Again I think this is for a reason and IMHO it's because they are not the same. They are a mixture of Quan Fa and Ti'Gwa.

Okinawan's do not practice forms like the Chinese. They are fast, crisp and tight instead of flowing and open. I could go on and on but the point is... yes I agree with you that the Chinese arts had a huge impact on what we call Karate and so did Japanese Ideology. However in the end it is uniquely Okinawan. Even Uechi-Ryu and Goju-Ryu are unique when compared to Chinese arts. They share similar forms, Sanchin (Sam Chien) comes to mind, but they are practiced differently and are for all intensive purposes uniquely Okinawan.

I understand and respect your point of view but I think you may be painting with a very wide brush.

As far as Chinese imagery is concerned, I never said that this was not utilized. If you look at what most call the "Bible of Karate", the Bubishi, you will see many examples of chinese imagery.

Whether the Ryukyu people utilized this practice of imagery or not, I really don't think can be proved or disproved. I have never actually seen examples other than in the Bubishi.

I appreciate your view point on this and did not mean to dispute your views, but was merely pointing out my views on why I think the Okinawan's would not have followed all things Chinese. They are Okinawan.

[MatsuShinshii]

David Nisan,

I forgot to mention that terms for techniques where not originally described or pronounced in Japanese but rather in Hogen or the Okinawan dialect. It wasn't until the Japanese pushed their ideologies that the techniques became described and pronounce in Japanese.

This I believe is mainly do to the spread of Japanese arts world wide and Okinawan instructors going with the flow since students from other countries were utilizing the Japanese pronunciations.

My Shinshii actually taught us using the old tongue when I first started. It later changed. But my Shinshii's Shinshii refused to join the Budokai (forgive me if this is not accurate or not spelled right) where most styles/arts joined and adapted quickly to the Japanese methods and ours did not. This may be why it took longer to adapt.

Having said this, and more to your point, I have never heard any terms pronounced in Chinese.

Actually I will take that back as some of the Kata still utilize the Chinese names. I stand corrected.

[David Nisan]

MatsuShinshii

Let me first apologize. I expressed myself inadequately and impolitely. I am sorry.

You are right. Okinawans arts are uniquely Okinawan, and Shorin-ryu especially so (I honestly think that Shorin-ryu was not as influenced by Chinese arts as Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu).

You are also right that Okinawan masters were practice. And they were also eager to learn and improve. Therefore, they did not reject martial knowledge (whether coming from Okinawan arts, Chinese arts, or Japanese) but embraced it and adapted it.

Maybe I should put it this way: China was huge. At about 1900 it had a 400 years old martial arts tradition. And that tradition borrowed heavily from a 2000 years old body-cultivation tradition. Such an environment, with great many martial arts masters constantly improving their arts (for there was a stiff competition between them) and with access to sophisticated knowledge of the body, was conducive to the creation of first-rate martial arts.

I guess Okinawans realized it. They did not have to adopt the entire Chinese quanfa, just borrow the principles and knowledge they felt they needed. Thus, Chinese influence was strong, but it did not dictate the actual form of Okinawan arts, nor did it preclude the practice of the older Okinawan arts.

I find it very interesting that your grand-Shinshii did not join the Budokai. Can you say a little more about it?

Thank you for you informative post and for making me re-think my ideas and improve. I appreciate it.

With Respect

David

[David Nisan]

MatsuShinshii

Please let me know if my updated theory stands.

Thank you.

David

[JR 137]

Great debate here guys. Sorry, I have nothing of value to add to the conversation. It's very educational.