Tuite?

[wildbourgman]

Would anyone here consider Okinawan tuite a "grappling art" if not why not ?

Personally I could see some dojos or even entire federations going with equal or possibly more tuite than striking curriculum in most traditional karate. In my opinion tuite and it's seamless flow with striking is where traditional Karate can compete with Brazilian jujitsu and MMA for students.

Any thoughts?

[Wastelander]

I hesitate to call tuidi/torite/tuite an "art" of any kind, simply because that tends to make people think it is its own separate, standalone system of fighting, which is not its intent. Your comment about its "seamless flow with striking" is exactly why it isn't an art unto itself. It is a vital component to karate, and I will say that it is the "grappling component" or karate, but if you call something a "grappling art," they are going to think of arts whose entire focus is on grappling.

[wildbourgman]

Thanks Wastelander, I think the last part of my comment is more where I was eventually going later, because your comment is exactly what my Sensei would say to tuite as a stand alone art.

Now this is just a brain storm and I know this is not traditional, but could a system that uses tuite, re-structure it's training to focus more on tuite simply in order to either stand up to other more MMA and Ju-jitsu focused arts?

Could it work on the floor, the ring, the street with being more tuite focused?

After proving is works a few times, how hard would it be to create it, explain it and sell it to the general public?

Some background is Shotokan which used very little grappling, our Shorin Ryu group ranges from 90 percent striking and 10 percent tuite to 50/50 depending on the instructor (from what I see).

How hard would it be to go say 90/10 tuite/striking and still end up with a strong defense system ?

Or How about leaving everything alone and simply marketing the fact that we have tuite, focus and explain that as a sales pitch. I'm a big fan of evangelizing the Okinawan arts kind of like Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do did from the 1950's to the 1980's and especially as Brazilian Ju-jitsu did more recently.

[sensei8]

Shindokan is Tuite, and Tuite is Shindokan; one depends on the other because the manner of which our Soke incorporates Tuite in Shindokan has made Tuite the backbone of Shindokan.

The model of Tuite isn't a stand alone art, nor is it a separate art, nor is it an art as well. Tuite is an expression of Shindokan. Shindokan is the core, and Tuite is a tool that is deeply interwoven into the very fibers that is Shindokan.

Tuite as that model utilizes ever aspect of Shindokan, and it's because of that, in which we functionally depend upon them both so heavily. Shindokan is 85% hands and 15% feet; our feet set up our hands, and not vice versa. In Shindokan, and the brand of our Tuite, we never back-up unless it serves us favorably.

Our brand of Tuite, close ranges as well as space management entreats us, whenever we direct Tuite through Shindokan. I once wrote an article for KF explaining how our space management is utilzed within Shindokan concerning the efforts of Tuite. Here's that link...

http://www.karateforums.com/close-range-space-management-vt46269.html?highlight=space+management

To the layperson, one might observe that Tuite seems like an art by itself, and then at the very same time, that Tuite is only part of said MA style, and not a stand alone anything. But if I can move from point to point, and while doing so, I have the appearances of doing Tuite and Shindokan separately, however, that's the furthest thing from the truth because whenever and however that I'm defending/attacking, BOTH Shindokan AND Tuite are being executed simultaneously and not individually.

This is generally speaking, and our opinion.

[bushido_man96]

I see what you are saying here, wildbourgman, but where you are going to run into issues is in the actual "rolling" aspect of the tuite in your art. Do you train from the mount, guard, side mount, etc? Do you know the transitions from each, the submissions available there, and the counters from there? How much of the tuite that is included in your style is dedicated to "rolling?" Because when people here grappling, that is what they will think about. And grappling styles like Hapkido and Aikido have not made a splash on the MMA scene.

I definitely understand you wanting to tout your style, and show everyone that you've got some of what the others have. But you can't take what you have and try to package it as something different.

Now this is just a brain storm and I know this is not traditional, but could a system that uses tuite, re-structure it's training to focus more on tuite simply in order to either stand up to other more MMA and Ju-jitsu focused arts?

You probably could try to spend a considerable amount of time trying to do this, but BJJ has already done a great job of putting forth a comprehensive ground system. Folk-style Wrestling is also a good base to work from. It would probably be a much more efficient path to start with one of those systems and work from there to get to where it sounds like you want to go.

[sensei8]

Tuite as a grappling art, and by itself? No, however, Tuite can be used in conjunction with grappling and the like. However, that might depend on the level of knowledge/experience of the practitioner, and when the opportunity presents itself.

[wildbourgman]

You probably could try to spend a considerable amount of time trying to do this, but BJJ has already done a great job of putting forth a comprehensive ground system. Folk-style Wrestling is also a good base to work from. It would probably be a much more efficient path to start with one of those systems and work from there to get to where it sounds like you want to go.

Bushido man, my vision would not change the styles that use Tuite. My vision is to change the focus toward teaching more tuite or even just better market the fact that it's within the art.

I would love to get an up close and personal look at Shindokan, because I think this is probably more what I'm thinking of. Some Shorin Ryu dojos already have a more tuite focused curriculum, so as far as efficiency I think it would be a rather simple adjustment without looking outside of karate.

As far as groundwork as in BJJ, I don't know if there is any equivalent in any Okinawan styles but my focus would be the stand up grappling and joint locks already in Karate systems. Maybe some of the other practitioners can help me on that. My angle though would be to not compete with BJJ on ground fighting, but to give folks that want to stay standing a way to do it when striking is not an option. I think that some customers are looking for that product even if they don't know it yet.

I've told this anecdote a few times on this site, but I've talked to so many traditional karate instructors that lament the loss of past, current and future students to MMA clubs. Really I'm a novice in Karate, but I think I see one way to help them stop the bleeding.

[bushido_man96]

MMA has a certain appeal to certain people, and those who really want to seek it out are going to. I'm not sure the more traditional styles are going to be able to adjust to bring those people back. With what you are mentioning, it sounds like you'll have the significant stand-up portion of an MMA, and have the standing grappling aspect of it, but if you can't provide the ground fighting aspect, you'll lose those that want it. And then there is the whole other aspect of the "traditional trappings" that Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Shindokan, or even TKD have that those seeking MMA training are really not interested in. Those who seek out MMA training like the "gym feel" that comes along with the training. So what you feel you may be losing based on what you feel is the consumer's lack of knowledge of what your art actually teaches, may have more to do with what your art is compared to MMA, and how its packaged and delivered. I hope that makes sense.

[Wastelander]

If you were to change karate to a 90/10 split of grappling/striking components, you would have something pretty well indistinguishable from Japanese jujutsu, in my opinion, and that already has trouble being seen as valid for the reason that bushido_man96 points out--a lack of "rolling" and groundwork, generally.

Now, in my dojo, we practice kakedameshi, or kata randori. This allows us to work close range striking, clinching, limb control, tuidi, and takedowns against a resisting opponent. Something that is often missing from karate training. We also tend to continue with grappling once we hit the ground, but that's because several of the instructors have experience with grappling arts (judo, jujutsu, catch wrestling, etc.) and we include that in our curriculum. It isn't technically a component of karate, even if we use karate techniques along the way.

[MatsuShinshii]

Would anyone here consider Okinawan tuite a "grappling art" if not why not ?

Personally I could see some dojos or even entire federations going with equal or possibly more tuite than striking curriculum in most traditional karate. In my opinion tuite and it's seamless flow with striking is where traditional Karate can compete with Brazilian jujitsu and MMA for students.

Any thoughts?

Tuidi (Tuite) is not an art unto itself. It is mixed bag of tricks so to speak. It comes from two distinct disciplines. Quin Na (Chin Na) and Di/Ti. Together with Tegumi and Kyusho it makes up the self defense applications of Karate.

It however was never meant to be a stand alone art but rather a contributing factor in a total art. It consists of joint locks, traps, chokes, hyperextension's, bone breaking, and what would be called dirty fighting techniques.

Tegumi, I believ is what you might be thinking of. It is a mixture of Okinawan Sumo, grappling and some believe it was also influenced by Jujitsu by way of the satsuma clan of Samurai.

And to answer your question... Tuidi coupled with Tegumi is the answer to modern day Jujitsu and MMA when it is used in concert with Karate's stricks and kicks.