WC William Cheung vs WT Emin Boztepe

[TJ-Jitsu]

Have no problem of how off or on track this topic sways.

Nor do I. Takes a few days for posts to pop up, so what the hell- we've got plenty of time to run off on a few tangents...

Training methods will deviate depending on style.

Chain punching for Wing Chun is a part of their style, for them to do Karate or boxing punches would not fit in to their MO.

Exactly the point Im trying to make. The real world results are not qualifying the theory....

I am very familiar with Wing Chun chain punching techniques, that without the proper training or instruction will most definitely be weak and ineffective.

Had a real fight in a TKD class, with another student. Using Wing Chun chain punches he didn't have a chance, it nearly got me expelled, I did them the favor and soon after I quit.

So allow me to point out the obvious here... TKD cant punch to the face and for all intents and purposes is a style of pure kicking... and the best story you've got is basically fighting a guy thats as novice and they come with his hands? Thats not exactly strong ground to stand on.

From personal experience (in my youth) when fighting on the ground, I used my head alot for headbutting and forhead face rubbing techniques; this is not something that can be practiced in a Dojo.

There are plenty of dirty fighting street fighting techniques that can be used while fighting on the ground, that are not jujitsu based or similar to Wing Chun; however more similar to a wild animal attack.

"Dirty" fighting techniques are laughably effective at best. The reason why is because novice fighters havent a clue about positional dominance or how to achieve it. In short, the position you are in is what will dictate how effective your attacks will be, not necessarily your choice of attacks.

Headbutts are certainly legit, but you've got to be on top to headbutt, and you also need to know how to posture up. Once again, being able to duplicate success against people that have no idea what they're doing is hardly a convincing argument.

[TJ-Jitsu]

Many people in the Wing Chun community (during the past years) have switched to Emin's Wing Tsun.

Regardless of Emin's popularity out side of the martial art community, he has within the WC branches given a new perspective and inspired many to continue with confidence.

Wing Chun has suffered many demoralized blows for being ineffective, Emin has changed that image by visiting many WC schools and converting them to his 21st Century WT methods.

Traditionl Wing Chun is different from the contemporary version, that is taking over and practiced today.

The traditional WC fighters were combatting with traditional Chinese martial artists. Whereas Emin's WT encompasses fighting against modern day martial artists.

To be sitting in judgement on a video clip of Emin fighting 30 years ago, on how bad he was then. you will undoubtedly miss out on how good he is at preparing Wing Tsun students for the future.

Don't be over confident on how good your style is against Wing Chun; because there is a new WING TSUNami generation on it's way, and under estimating others, is always the cause of downfalls; in this instance, it could be due to the influence of Emin Boztepe.

So I did a quick google and came up with this, dated in 2011 (at least updated 2011)

Now I HIGHLY recommend anyone viewing this thread to watch the second video- 30 seconds in we see a deadly reversal and a groin rip where he actually simulates tearing of his opponents testicles and casually tossing them over his shoulder like a salt shaker at thanksgiving dinner

Im hoping these are old compared to what you say hes doing that new. Videos like this are the reason why so many (such as myself) cant take this seriously. Im seriously hard pressed to find a worse self defense demonstration. This guy has absolutely no concept of how to move his hips on the ground or in a clinch. Havent they ever grabbed someone that actually had wrestling experience and knew how to throw the most basic of double legs?

I really and I mean really encourage you to visit your local MMA gym (if you have one) just so you can spar and move around a little bit. Now, MMA gyms are used to novices and they're used to people from other styles coming in but most importantly they should be used to getting hit. Try some of this in there and see where it takes you. Once again now, you'll be sparring so you dont need to worry about someone really hurting you. You could gradually increase your power as the rounds go on if you really want to push the action a bit. Thats perhaps the safest way to really go about trying this out. Im not trying to find a reason to gloat, but you seem to really want to learn how to fight and defend yourself. If you're still not willing to test what you've been training against actual fighters, well I've done all I can for you at this point- the ball is in your court

[TJ-Jitsu]

Most of what you say here is true about all styles. Not many are made to take on more than one opponent, and third party intervention with a knife is bad no matter if it is one on one or three on one.

Heres the problem- Style "X" is challenged on its effectiveness. It fails. Style X then claims that said techniques are made to fight more than one person.

How does it follow that someone is unable to defeat a single attacker but is somehow capable of dominating 2 or 3? Thats kinda like saying I get sick if I take a shot of tequilla but Im ok if I do 4 or 5....

[Alan Armstrong]

Emin thus far is looking alot like marmite, either you love it or you don't.

From a none Wing Chun point of view, his techniques or lack of seem iffy or debatable to say the least.

However in the WC camp Emin, shows exceptional skills for his Chi Sao and Chi Gerk.

Also for his muscular physique. he also shows exceptional talent and sensitivity, contrary to the beliefs of traditional WC practioners.

Win Chun before Emin's time was shattered by the MMA's between WC and Muay Thai.

There was a need for WC to adapt or add other styles to stay viable.

Bruce Lee came along and took from WC and added it to his own concept of MA and formed JKD. As Bruce not being 100% Chinese or related to Ip Man, would never been able to rise to the top in WC.

Bruce Lee did however show the potential of WC to the world, that popularized it beyond imagination.

When Bruce Lee died, there were many imitations of him, popping up. Very much like when Elvis and MJ died.

No one has been able to go as high ad Bruce Lee because he left the bar far too high for anyone to exeed him.

As times have changed and if Bruce Lee was still alive, there is no doubt in my mind that he could unite and lead the WC clan globally.

Emin has Bruce Lee essence of originality.

Also Emin is not trying to be the next Bruce Lee as everyone would be able to see through that.

What Emin has, is his ability to help others to be better than they thought possible, something Bruce Lee was a master of.

[Alan Armstrong]

Emin has had 300 real life fights, how many real life fights has his critics had?

Real life fights, meaning that exclude any type of tournament setups.

[TJ-Jitsu]

Emin has had 300 real life fights, how many real life fights has his critics had?

Real life fights, meaning that exclude any type of tournament setups.

I've got about 400 myself bouncing over the past decade. "Real" fights too as in we're squaring up and people are throwing punches at me. Wasnt too difficult a number to get to if you work at the right (wrong?) place. Several of my co-workers could verify this, but its not necessary (more on that later...)

Rickson himself claims to be 400-0 between tournaments, challenge matches, professional fights, thumb wrestling, and whatever else....

Mario Sperry claimed 250-0 when he went to the UFC.

Back to my previous statement- it doesnt matter. The reason why is this. Among my 400 bar fights, you've got a decent mix of various types of people, but they all had the same thing in common- they werent fighters. They were regular people. Furthermore, even if everyone you spoke to about me says "yeah, he fought that many" it still wouldnt hold up as any sort of scientific evidence. At least Sperry was honest when asked about his "record." He said he made it up to sound good so he could get in, nevermind the jiu jitsu phenom he was. And thats the problem. Being "undefeated in street fights" or having a 1000-0 record is the easiest thing to claim and its impossible to refute. To top it off anyone worth their merit really doesnt care about how many bums you beat up in the street. Its not the quantity of people you beat but the quality of fighters you faced. Anyone can beat up a bum in a street fight- thats not impressive and I speak from experience....

[sensei8]

So allow me to point out the obvious here... TKD cant punch to the face and for all intents and purposes is a style of pure kicking... and the best story you've got is basically fighting a guy thats as novice and they come with his hands? Thats not exactly strong ground to stand on.

GM Young Ik Suh was a great overall fighter, even with his hands. After all, he was once a Korean Presidential Guard, and he's not the only TKD practitioner with great hands.

[Alan Armstrong]

Personally I cannot recount how many wins and loses on the street and in tournaments; including in bars and clubs, over a life time it can add up to be alot.

Have been in far to many fights than I can possibly remember. I was bullied as a child growing up so that accounts for alot of fights, if being bullied counts as a fight.

Grew up eventually belonging to youth gangs, that added up to alot of fighting.

Have been hospitalized a few times, my wins and loses have been about equal, if there is such a thing as equal in fights, or wins for that matter.

Have been attacked by the police on three occasions; those I will never forget; do they count as fights of beatings?

To fight two people ay the same time does that count as two fights or just one?

[Alan Armstrong]

Thank you sensei8 for pointing out the TKD example use of hands.

While on the subject of fast hands.

When I quit TKD the other student that I had a fight with in the kwoon was a higher rank than me. He would constantly throw haymaker roundhouse kicks at my thighs, and hardly nothing else. Week after week when sparring with this fella, he would do the same thing.

I asked him if he wanted to spar full out? He agreed. Big mistake on his part, cos I'm super fast with my hands.

I explained to the instructor what happened (after he pulled me off the other guy) he said that the other student didn't do anything wrong.

Also, I was constantly bullied by a 6'4" TKD Black belt. I'm 5'7" tall. He would side kick me so hard that I would need to do a safety roll backwards twice. He would constantly do this to me, time after time, he was certainly getting a kick out of kicking me around.

Another TKD higher rank than me would change the two step sparring technique and hit me in the back of the neck, some 20 years later I am suffering from the damage he caused with arthritis.

I sorted out the 6'4 TKD black belt by ducking under his kick, touch the knee on his supporting leg, as he finished his kick, for him I had vanished out of sight, as he turned around I pulled a punch to his nose. He was in shock!

The instructor saw everthing and shouted out to me during the incident "Be careful of his knee!"

While I was sparring with other black belts they complained to the chief instructor because I could beat them. The CI started wispering to them how to beat me, during sparring class. How unfair for me and how humiliating for them.

I was almost ready to take my green belt test.

Had alot of reasons to quit TKD and not many reasons to stay.

I won a Gold in the TKD provincials for sparring before I quit, wanted to go out with a bang!

I like Emin Boztepe because he wants to genuinely help the underdogs like myself to win against those that are oppressive to smaller or weaker people.

[TJ-Jitsu]

So allow me to point out the obvious here... TKD cant punch to the face and for all intents and purposes is a style of pure kicking... and the best story you've got is basically fighting a guy thats as novice and they come with his hands? Thats not exactly strong ground to stand on.

GM Young Ik Suh was a great overall fighter, even with his hands. After all, he was once a Korean Presidential Guard, and he's not the only TKD practitioner with great hands.

Yeah, I know but I was just making a broad over generalization for the sake of simplicity. I mean, its like me saying BJJ guys can throw punches because look at Vitor Belfort....

Thank you sensei8 for pointing out the TKD example use of hands.

While on the subject of fast hands.

When I quit TKD the other student that I had a fight with in the kwoon was a higher rank than me. He would constantly throw haymaker roundhouse kicks at my thighs, and hardly nothing else. Week after week when sparring with this fella, he would do the same thing.

I asked him if he wanted to spar full out? He agreed. Big mistake on his part, cos I'm super fast with my hands.

I explained to the instructor what happened (after he pulled me off the other guy) he said that the other student didn't do anything wrong.

Also, I was constantly bullied by a 6'4" TKD Black belt. I'm 5'7" tall. He would side kick me so hard that I would need to do a safety roll backwards twice. He would constantly do this to me, time after time, he was certainly getting a kick out of kicking me around.

Another TKD higher rank than me would change the two step sparring technique and hit me in the back of the neck, some 20 years later I am suffering from the damage he caused with arthritis.

I sorted out the 6'4 TKD black belt by ducking under his kick, touch the knee on his supporting leg, as he finished his kick, for him I had vanished out of sight, as he turned around I pulled a punch to his nose. He was in shock!

The instructor saw everthing and shouted out to me during the incident "Be careful of his knee!"

While I was sparring with other black belts they complained to the chief instructor because I could beat them. The CI started wispering to them how to beat me, during sparring class. How unfair for me and how humiliating for them.

I was almost ready to take my green belt test.

Had alot of reasons to quit TKD and not many reasons to stay.

I won a Gold in the TKD provincials for sparring before I quit, wanted to go out with a bang!

I like Emin Boztepe because he wants to genuinely help the underdogs like myself to win against those that are oppressive to smaller or weaker people.

Sounds like the instructor wasnt doing his job if better students are beating up on newer ones. It should have been him that kept them in check... but you doing it probably sent the point home a bit better.

If you like Emin's attitude, great- but is that not a very generic phrase that can be ascribed to virtually any martial arts instructor?