Question about etiquette (sort of)

[MatsuShinshii]

I missed the fact that you said you have been studying under your Sensei for 10 yrs.

I take back my original post. If you don't know the etiquette after 10 yrs there is a problem with communication within your Dojo.

I knew what was expected right off the bat or within no more than a month. I have trained with very traditional Okinawan teachers and American teachers and have never gone more than a month not knowing what is expected of me as a student. You either learned via by word or by action EXACTLY what was expected very fast.

You need to talk to your teacher after or before class and open up the lines of communication with him. I personally think this should have been his responsibility 10 years ago but if you do not know by now it's past time for you to find out.

Holy molly! 10 years? Something is definitely missing here.

[JR 137]

Hello! Sometimes there are situations in my karate training when I'm not sure about the expected behavior for me as a student. I don't know whether there is an established way of responding to those situations or whether they are specific to my Sensei's teaching style. I'll appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Some background

1. My Sensei talks very little. There might be a whole class when he names an exercise and counts, and that's it. No explanations. No corrections. I do catch his eye on us now and then, but often he'd direct us to turn away from the mirrors and then you can see nobody, just focus on the count.

2. Our dojo is very small. Four regular students. Not uncommon to have only two or three students in a class for the night.

3. I've been repeatedly told off by Sensei for verbal communications during the class (things like explaining the current drill to my partner) so I'm now thorough afraid to open my mouth and ask him anything.

Particular situation

Yesterday we had three students present and I was the highest rank. At some point Sensei asked us to do Renzoku Bunkai but Paul didn't know it all, and Jim only knew the defense. Sensei told me to be the attacker against Jim, while Paul to follow the defense moves without a partner. After a few repetitions of bunkai, Jim and Paul swapped, and Jim was following my moves as an attacker without a partner. So far so good -- I knew what I was doing: helping the guys to learn (pacing it for them and stuff). But then Sensei told Jim to work on Renzoku with Paul and gave no instructions to me. None. Not a single word. Thus my question: what am I supposed to do at this point?

I did a few repetitions of Renzoku without a partner, both sides, full speed and power. Then I started working on my kata. I don't mind working on my own but I'm not sure that's what is expected. Is it? Or am I supposed to do the same exercise the other students are doing until Sensei instructs me otherwise?

Sounds like your Sensei was taught by an old school instructor or he is just socially awkward.

If he was taught the old school way it is expected that the student pay attention and learn or mimic his teachers directions without questions. The theory is that the student first learn the proper way before an explanation is ever given.

If he is just socially awkward you may want to speak with him after class and ask him what he expects in this situation.

Another thought is that he may not pay the same attention to you because he knows you already know these drills and expects you to be an example to the other students being that you are senior.

I would say that only your Sensei can answer these questions and you should talk to him.

Respect is one of the tenants of our art. You should be respectful to him and ask him away from the other students as the answer may not be something he would want shared with them. Having said that he should respect you and give you an answer.

The entire post is right on, but the last paragraph is especially true. Ask privately. Asking during class in the heat of the moment can easily bring on a power struggle. And if asked in private and asked respectfully, the teacher is obligated to answer. Why? The teacher is supposed to teach!

I wouldn't train anywhere I felt I was constantly walking on eggshells. Not for very long anyway.

[chickadee]

Are any rules, and the like, posted?? Do said rules clarify your concerns??

To my knowledge, there are no posted rules.

If Sensei is busy with other students, the best thing to do is not interrupt...ever!! Wait, train, and when he approaches you, ask for his help. Or, and this is a sensitive one, stop training and raise your hand, and when he approaches you, ask him for his help. The sensitive part is that you might be ignored, or worse, he'll ask you why you're just standing there....train, not stand still!!

That was exactly what I did: trained on my own while Sensei was overseeing the other two students. I have no problem with training on my own (I can easily find what to work on to fill the whole class), my question was whether that's what is expected from me. And from yours and other responses I gather that, yes, that would be a usual expectation but it might be a good idea for me to talk to my Sensei anyway, if I'm being confused during the class by something.

Stupid question, is your teacher Japanese/Okinawan/other Asian? I'm assuming so, but you never actually said he is (or I didn't see it).

IMO, you shouldn't be wondering what's acceptable after training with anyone for 10 years. 10 weeks or 10 months? Sure. 10 years?

Sensei is a Caucasian born in America but he is replicating the teaching style of his own teachers who where Okinawan. Sometimes I wonder whether he is taking it too far, but I've never studied under a Japanese/Okinawan Sensei myself and gasshukus' environment is very different.

I understand your frustration at a lack of feedback by your sensei. But his intentions may lay around the fact that you should be able look internally for what you felt like needed to be changed.

Yes, this might be very much the case.

Sounds like your Sensei was taught by an old school instructor

He definitely was.

If he was taught the old school way it is expected that the student pay attention and learn or mimic his teachers directions without questions. The theory is that the student first learn the proper way before an explanation is ever given.

Yes. I see this theory being applied in our dojo quite consistently.

I would say that only your Sensei can answer these questions and you should talk to him.

Respect is one of the tenants of our art. You should be respectful to him and ask him away from the other students as the answer may not be something he would want shared with them. Having said that he should respect you and give you an answer.

You are right. Looks like, in my confusion, I'm overthinking the whole thing.

I missed the fact that you said you have been studying under your Sensei for 10 yrs.

I take back my original post. If you don't know the etiquette after 10 yrs there is a problem with communication within your Dojo.

Your first post is as valuable to me as this one, thank you very much for your advice. I do agree there are problems with communication within our Dojo (have examples related to administrative and other stuff, not just on the floor), but on the Dojo floor I don't clearly understand where the line is between the communication being broken and the natural consequences of the traditional teaching style you described above.

Holy molly! 10 years? Something is definitely missing here.

I'm training only 2-3 times a week. Karate is an important part of my life but it isn't the way of life for me. Sometimes I think, Sensei just isn't interested in students like me, who are not fully committed to karate. He doesn't mind when I come to the Dojo but doesn't really care either. I might be totally wrong, though. Don't know.

***

Thinking more about it: is it really possible to practice karate as a hobby (like I do) for a long time? Maybe, one tries it and then has to either move on to other things, or become a real student?

[JR 137]

I'm not good at cutting and pasting multiple quotes, so please bear with me...

What exactly is a "real student?" Training 2-3 times per week shouldn't get someone ignored during class. It's not as if you're a professional fighter and your trainer demands 6 hours a day 6 days a week. People have jobs, families, and other meaningful commitments. For most of us, it's quality over quantity; you should be consistent and work hard when you're there. I could see a teacher not taking time away from students who are consistent and serious by devoting way too much time to someone who shows up once every few weeks and goofs around while he/she's there, but this doesn't seem to be the case. If you're serious when you're there, you should be taken seriously.

The style of teaching raises red flags. Replicating what your teacher does tells me you don't really know what you're doing. Not explaining things tells me you don't know how to explain them. I could see getting aggravated with a student who's been there for 10 years and has been explained how to do something throughout their tenure, but all students?

One of the requirements of being an effective teacher is being an effective communicator. Making expectations clear is a big part of that. It shouldn't take students longer to figure out how to do a drill than actually doing the drill. Being a school teacher, it shouldn't take my students longer to figure out how to do their homework than it takes to actually do it. It shouldn't take longer to figure out how to do an activity in class than to actually do the activity. If they can't figure out how to do it, either I haven't explained it well enough or it's too difficult; both scenarios are on me, not them. There's usually someone who doesn't quite get it, but it's one or two, not half of the class.

I can't say whether the teacher is great or horrible or anything in between. I haven't been his student. For all I know, you could be the problem. Highly unlikely though. As a student, your biggest stress shouldn't be if you're insulting your teacher, it should be a "no matter how many times I throw a front leg roundhouse kick, I can't get any power behind it" sort of thing. How well do kids learn from someone they're genuinely afraid of? How well do adults learn from someone they're genuinely afraid of offending? You're not 100% concentrating on what you're supposed to be there to learn, you're worrying about doing 'something stupid' that'll get you in trouble.

Talk to him privately. If you don't get the answers you feel you deserve, find another teacher. That doesn't necessarily mean getting the answers you want, although it can too. It's your training; you should be getting out of it what you want, reasonably speaking.

[MatsuShinshii]

Your first post is as valuable to me as this one, thank you very much for your advice. I do agree there are problems with communication within our Dojo (have examples related to administrative and other stuff, not just on the floor), but on the Dojo floor I don't clearly understand where the line is between the communication being broken and the natural consequences of the traditional teaching style you described above.

Chickadee,

This is just something that some get comfortable with and some do not. It is not normal for westerners to be taught in this style so some have great difficulty adjusting to it. However I have to say 10 yrs is an extreme case.

Most of my life has been under the tutelage of a traditional teacher.

Shows once, says very little until you screw up. However if you are diligent in your quest to learn and prove that you are there to learn the dialogue begins to transform and your teacher begins to open up.

I think I understand your dilemma based on what I know of traditional teachers and their view point.

Old school teachers do not try to impress their students like western teachers do and they also do not just give trust and respect as readily as us westerners.

The student has to prove to the teacher that they are there to learn and that the teachers time is not being wasted on them.

There is a sort of interview process where the teacher will show something once and if the student does not pick it up they feel as though the student is not pay attention and is really not taking the instruction seriously.

Old school teachers also teach by example without a lot of additional oral explanation.

If you are more of an auditory learner versus a visual learner you are going to find this style of teaching very challenging.

I would ask your teacher to lunch or dinner to talk with them away from the Dojo. I would then explain the difficulties you are having and explain to him that the training is important to you but you feel like your missing out and do not want to lag behind in your training.

I get that you are not a full time student but if your attending class three times a week and are still not getting his style there is either something disconnected in your learning or his teaching.

If you intend on staying with him you will need to figure this out and by getting him away from the Dojo in a neutral place he may let you know what the problem is. If this does not work, and your not going to like this advise, I would look elsewhere. The traditional teaching style is not for all students. You may need a teacher that spends more time orally explaining versus a one time visual explanation the lesson.

He also may feel that you are not serious about the training and after you explain your issues, may change his mind. If this is the case your training will turn around quickly. If not you may need to take a hard look and decide if this school or teacher is best for you.

I will say this, if you have been training with someone for ten years and do not understand what is expected of you and your teacher treats you with a mild neglect there is a huge issue. Traditional teachers come off very cold at first. Once you have proven yourself they are still very strict but their demeanor softens and you start to build a relationship with them. You see them as a friend and not a dictator.

It sounds to me like you still have not built a trust and friendship with this man after 10 years of training. One of two things are happening. Either he feels that you are not worth the time and effort but still has the hope that you will come around or he feels this way and allows you to attend till you finally decide to quit. If you are serious about staying with him you have to convince him that you are not wasting his time. Show him that you are excited about the training. If a student just goes through the motions (albeit the perception of the instructor due to them not understanding what is expected) I sit down with them and ask if they really want to be here and if they understand what is expected. If they say yes but still do not show it in actions I tell them to leave. My Shinshii wouldn't have given a student the first chance to straighten up. They were told to leave as soon as the lack of enthusiasm was exhibited.

It may be just your lack of understanding when it comes to old school mentality.

Hopefully this leads you in the right path and you and your Sensei figure this out. Good luck.

[bball197046]

Sounds very traditional. I would just talk with your sensei.