Obscure karate styles?

[Himokiri Karate]

Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab.

It may be Judo but most likely you are referring to Tegumi. It is similar and has similar throws, sweeps, take downs, etc. but with small differences in the way they are executed and the way it flows in conjunction with strikes, kicks, etc.

I have never heard of Tegumi! See this is what I am talking about. It seems like there are many different sub-styles within a style.

I was referring to the fact that, there maybe a Karate style that uses tons of judo techniques.

[MatsuShinshii]

Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab.

It may be Judo but most likely you are referring to Tegumi. It is similar and has similar throws, sweeps, take downs, etc. but with small differences in the way they are executed and the way it flows in conjunction with strikes, kicks, etc.

I have never heard of Tegumi! See this is what I am talking about. It seems like there are many different sub-styles within a style.

I was referring to the fact that, there maybe a Karate style that uses tons of judo techniques.

Tegumi is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Sumo. Some feel that Jujutsu techniques were incorporated as some of the throws, sweeps and take downs are similar in application. The argument for this is that Matsumura Sokon (In our art), while training in Kenjutsu under the Satsuma clan during their occupation of the Ryukyu kingdom,could have easily learned Jujutsu from his teacher or another and incorporated these techniques into the Tegumi curriculum.

Considering the Tegumi pre-dates Matsumura, most feel that this is not the case. The truth is no one actually knows since there was very few documents kept from this or earlier time periods about Karate or its influences.

There is nothing to base this on nor any proof whatsoever to support this. However you can somewhat make a distinction between the Okinawan grappling/sumo techniques and what are thought to be jujutsu based.

There is no correlation to Judo other than Judo was inspired by Jujutsu, which is why they look as if they may be from Judo, but they are not.

Karate is generations older than Judo and thus could not contain Judo applications unless a more modern day instructor added them to the curriculum.

Unfortunately this happens in today's Dojo's all to often. Because an instructor does not understand or was never taught Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho through the Bunkai of the Kata they tend to add to their art and often pull from other arts not associated with their base art as a means of "improving" the art. As if they know better than generations of time tested applications in actual combat situations.

If one where to bother researching their art, as the founders passed it down, they would discover that Karate is the original MMA and has the answers to almost every question in the context of combat and defense. IMHO.

[sensei8]

Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab.

It may be Judo but most likely you are referring to Tegumi. It is similar and has similar throws, sweeps, take downs, etc. but with small differences in the way they are executed and the way it flows in conjunction with strikes, kicks, etc.

I have never heard of Tegumi! See this is what I am talking about. It seems like there are many different sub-styles within a style.

I was referring to the fact that, there maybe a Karate style that uses tons of judo techniques.

Tegumi is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Sumo. Some feel that Jujutsu techniques were incorporated as some of the throws, sweeps and take downs are similar in application. The argument for this is that Matsumura Sokon (In our art), while training in Kenjutsu under the Satsuma clan during their occupation of the Ryukyu kingdom,could have easily learned Jujutsu from his teacher or another and incorporated these techniques into the Tegumi curriculum.

Considering the Tegumi pre-dates Matsumura, most feel that this is not the case. The truth is no one actually knows since there was very few documents kept from this or earlier time periods about Karate or its influences.

There is nothing to base this on nor any proof whatsoever to support this. However you can somewhat make a distinction between the Okinawan grappling/sumo techniques and what are thought to be jujutsu based.

There is no correlation to Judo other than Judo was inspired by Jujutsu, which is why they look as if they may be from Judo, but they are not.

Karate is generations older than Judo and thus could not contain Judo applications unless a more modern day instructor added them to the curriculum.

Unfortunately this happens in today's Dojo's all to often. Because an instructor does not understand or was never taught Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho through the Bunkai of the Kata they tend to add to their art and often pull from other arts not associated with their base art as a means of "improving" the art. As if they know better than generations of time tested applications in actual combat situations.

If one where to bother researching their art, as the founders passed it down, they would discover that Karate is the original MMA and has the answers to almost every question in the context of combat and defense. IMHO.

What MatsuShinshii excellently speaks towards is a pretty close description of Shindokan, the Okinawan style of Karate-do that I've been training in as well as teaching for 52 years, albeit, with a strong emphasis on Tuite.

[MatsuShinshii]

Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab.

It may be Judo but most likely you are referring to Tegumi. It is similar and has similar throws, sweeps, take downs, etc. but with small differences in the way they are executed and the way it flows in conjunction with strikes, kicks, etc.

I have never heard of Tegumi! See this is what I am talking about. It seems like there are many different sub-styles within a style.

I was referring to the fact that, there maybe a Karate style that uses tons of judo techniques.

Tegumi is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Sumo. Some feel that Jujutsu techniques were incorporated as some of the throws, sweeps and take downs are similar in application. The argument for this is that Matsumura Sokon (In our art), while training in Kenjutsu under the Satsuma clan during their occupation of the Ryukyu kingdom,could have easily learned Jujutsu from his teacher or another and incorporated these techniques into the Tegumi curriculum.

Considering the Tegumi pre-dates Matsumura, most feel that this is not the case. The truth is no one actually knows since there was very few documents kept from this or earlier time periods about Karate or its influences.

There is nothing to base this on nor any proof whatsoever to support this. However you can somewhat make a distinction between the Okinawan grappling/sumo techniques and what are thought to be jujutsu based.

There is no correlation to Judo other than Judo was inspired by Jujutsu, which is why they look as if they may be from Judo, but they are not.

Karate is generations older than Judo and thus could not contain Judo applications unless a more modern day instructor added them to the curriculum.

Unfortunately this happens in today's Dojo's all to often. Because an instructor does not understand or was never taught Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho through the Bunkai of the Kata they tend to add to their art and often pull from other arts not associated with their base art as a means of "improving" the art. As if they know better than generations of time tested applications in actual combat situations.

If one where to bother researching their art, as the founders passed it down, they would discover that Karate is the original MMA and has the answers to almost every question in the context of combat and defense. IMHO.

What MatsuShinshii excellently speaks towards is a pretty close description of Shindokan, the Okinawan style of Karate-do that I've been training in as well as teaching for 52 years, albeit, with a strong emphasis on Tuite.

Sensei8,

I am happy to hear that someone else trains in the old ways.

We also emphasize Torite/Tuite. Some may say it is the most important part as it teaches us self defense in that it encompasses traps, re-directions, joint locks, hyper-extensions, restraints, submissions, etc. which come from Tode or more specifically Qin Na (Chin Na).

Then the are the bone breaks, eye gouge, cheek hooks, throat grabs, strikes, neck cranks, chokes, etc, etc, etc. or more aptly termed now days as dirty boxing which comes from Ti/Di or if you're used to the Japanese terms Te/De. (the Japanese terms are not directed at you Sensei8 but anyone that may not recognize the Hogen terminology.)

However we do not separate out Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho. Nor do we separate them from the striking (Tsuki/Zuki), blocking (Uke) and kicking (Geri) techniques. They are taught as a whole. They is taught while learning the Kata and in conjunction with the Bunkai.

They also fit in with the stances (Dachi) that are found within the Kata and are shown in conjunction with these stances.

For example: the "transitional stances such as the lantern stance in Jutte is an actual application and not just a transitional stance as most think it is. There are four applications of this stance in actual self defense. One of which is and arm lock while applying a neck crank. This actually comes from the Bubushi and has been passed down from the original Quan and hidden within the Kata.

These and and many other applications come directly from the Bubushi by way of the book itself, the oral transmission and the direct passing on to the founder from his Chinese Quan Fa and Okinawan Ti teachers.

All "hidden"/ "Secret" techniques are contained within the Kata, the Bubushi, and the original Quan that either inspired the Kata or that the Kata directly came from.

Once a student is able to comprehend not just the strikes, stances, blocks, and kicks but also are able to apply the "hidden" techniques (Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) in conjunction the basic Kihon (Strikes, Blocks, Stances and Kicks) in conjunction with the applications (Bunkai) of the Kata, the art becomes a complete form of self defense.