Obscure karate styles?

[Himokiri Karate]

Ok I haven't posted in a long time and its funny because this topic is inspired by my username.

For those curious, Himokiri Karate is a style of karate in anime Baki. Its based on having freakishly strong fingers/hands as well as toes. The principal is based on pin point strikes, the smaller the target/strike, the more damage you can do. Seems realistic enough.

Anyway, I remembered a conversation I had with a friend of mine who is also fan of the show as well as Himokiri Karate and he says its real. I asked him if he can provide any proof and he said that there are tons of obscure Karate styles that never make it out of Japan or they may stay in the family/local community to avoid having it watered down.

Is this really true? Are there Karat styles that are obscure that cant be found on the internet or in any martial arts magazine? Is Himokiri Karate real?

[Spartacus Maximus]

It is as real as the cartoons mentioned. Works of fiction and especially stories meant for entertainment is probably the least reliable source of information about anything approaching reality.

Unless the one making the claims can readily produce undeniable proof. Just saying that some schools are not represented outside Japan is not enough. This person is either intentionally lying or has an immature and overactive imagination.

[Himokiri Karate]

It is as real as the cartoons mentioned. Works of fiction and especially stories meant for entertainment is probably the least reliable source of information about anything approaching reality.

Unless the one making the claims can readily produce undeniable proof. Just saying that some schools are not represented outside Japan is not enough. This person is either intentionally lying or has an immature and overactive imagination.

In all fairness though, the karate style is not as far fetched despite being presented in a work of fiction. For example, I have read the 72 shaolin methods by Jin Jing Zhong and you can argue that Himokiri Karate takes some of the exercises that pertains to developing strong toes and fingers.

This is not proof that Himokiri exists but I thought I should ask you guys if there are obscure styles of karate and if Himokiri karate happens to be one of them?

[MatsuShinshii]

It is as real as the cartoons mentioned. Works of fiction and especially stories meant for entertainment is probably the least reliable source of information about anything approaching reality.

Unless the one making the claims can readily produce undeniable proof. Just saying that some schools are not represented outside Japan is not enough. This person is either intentionally lying or has an immature and overactive imagination.

In most cases I would agree with your statements however there are Karate (Family) styles in Okinawa that are not shared with the public.

Remember that all of the styles we know today were not readily available outside of Okinawa until the 50 and 60's and there are styles that were not taught to outsiders until the last 20-30 years.

I would agree that most "styles" are well known today or at least someone has made mention of them either in books, magazines or on the net, but that does not mean that every family style is readily available to the public or even known.

I remember the first time I had ever heard the name Pangai-noon when I was a kid. I thought that I knew every style of Karate ever invented and low and behold here was a very old style I had never heard of before. It is possible that there are yet still arts that are not shared with the public due to the transmission only to family or are small enough or not as popular that it doesn't get much attention.

Do I think there is such a thing as a style of Karate based on a cartoon? No. Conditioning of the fingers and toes are as old as Karate is and targeting vital points is even older. They definitely have not cornered the market on originality. Most call this Kyusho.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Yes there are 'obscure" and family styles of karate or martial arts in Okinawa, Japan and China. That is a fact that anyone who has trained there would have heard of. This does not mean that somewhere out there Himokiri karate exists.

Everything shown and described in works of fiction is a mix of several well known aspects of existing martial arts. Things like body hardening and finger or open hand techniques are not at all special and are common to many Okinawan and Chinese martial arts. Uechi ryu, for example is most noted for this practice. In the recent past, though, this type of training was a staple of training for all karate styles on Okinawa.

[sensei8]

One might say that Himokiri basks in hyperbole one way or another. Is it real? Just because I've not heard of it, that too, isn't proof that it doesn't exist, either.

Anything created has a history, and in that history, a lineage exists. Is that, or any lineage, for that fact, basking in hyperbole one way or another. Things are written concerning the MA, especially a styles history and/or lineage, but very few were there at the birth of a particular style of the MA. Therefore, hearsay and conjecture do rear its ugly head one way or another because who's to say that the founder of said MA style didn't take any liberties in a hyperbole kind of way. I don't know! We don't know! For sure! Things written can be or they can't be!!

To me, and in short, proof is on the floor!! If Himokiri can survive on the floor, then anything outside of the floor lacks priority, and should be treated with a grain of salt. What about this and what about that?!?! What about them?!?!

Please don't misunderstand me, lineage and the like are important, however, if I was drowning in the ocean, and I'd already gone down a second time, and was about to go down for the third and last time, and an inner-tube floated by me, and saved my life, I'd kiss an inner-tube for the rest of my life. I wouldn't give a bent pin about the history and/or lineage of that inner-tube, I'd just be humble and thankful that it does what it did for me.

Obscure doesn't have to harbor bad connotations...does it?!

[Himokiri Karate]

It is as real as the cartoons mentioned. Works of fiction and especially stories meant for entertainment is probably the least reliable source of information about anything approaching reality.

Unless the one making the claims can readily produce undeniable proof. Just saying that some schools are not represented outside Japan is not enough. This person is either intentionally lying or has an immature and overactive imagination.

In most cases I would agree with your statements however there are Karate (Family) styles in Okinawa that are not shared with the public.

Remember that all of the styles we know today were not readily available outside of Okinawa until the 50 and 60's and there are styles that were not taught to outsiders until the last 20-30 years.

I would agree that most "styles" are well known today or at least someone has made mention of them either in books, magazines or on the net, but that does not mean that every family style is readily available to the public or even known.

I remember the first time I had ever heard the name Pangai-noon when I was a kid. I thought that I knew every style of Karate ever invented and low and behold here was a very old style I had never heard of before. It is possible that there are yet still arts that are not shared with the public due to the transmission only to family or are small enough or not as popular that it doesn't get much attention.

Do I think there is such a thing as a style of Karate based on a cartoon? No. Conditioning of the fingers and toes are as old as Karate is and targeting vital points is even older. They definitely have not cornered the market on originality. Most call this Kyusho.

Its funny you mentioned pangai-noon, I just found out about it over a week ago. I was watching this old ripped uechi ryu karate master doing conditioning and it was mentioned that pangai-noon inspired uechi ryu karate.

Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab.

One might say that Himokiri basks in hyperbole one way or another. Is it real? Just because I've not heard of it, that too, isn't proof that it doesn't exist, either.

Anything created has a history, and in that history, a lineage exists. Is that, or any lineage, for that fact, basking in hyperbole one way or another. Things are written concerning the MA, especially a styles history and/or lineage, but very few were there at the birth of a particular style of the MA. Therefore, hearsay and conjecture do rear its ugly head one way or another because who's to say that the founder of said MA style didn't take any liberties in a hyperbole kind of way. I don't know! We don't know! For sure! Things written can be or they can't be!!

To me, and in short, proof is on the floor!! If Himokiri can survive on the floor, then anything outside of the floor lacks priority, and should be treated with a grain of salt. What about this and what about that?!?! What about them?!?!

Please don't misunderstand me, lineage and the like are important, however, if I was drowning in the ocean, and I'd already gone down a second time, and was about to go down for the third and last time, and an inner-tube floated by me, and saved my life, I'd kiss an inner-tube for the rest of my life. I wouldn't give a bent pin about the history and/or lineage of that inner-tube, I'd just be humble and thankful that it does what it did for me.

Obscure doesn't have to harbor bad connotations...does it?!

This is seriously a solid post! The thing that's confusing is, the author of the show is a former amateur boxer and a kenpo practioner (not sure which style) he is also a historian of martial arts.

What makes it confusing is, in his manga which is on-going, he pulls out obscure facts that oddly enough turn out to be true. Not just about martial arts but about either nutrition or powerlifting or something random like environment or psychology of politicians. That being said, in one of the arcs, I learned so much about so many real life kung fu styles that are not well known as well as exercises that are also real but can be found in older physical culture books like Charles atlas books or other old school physical culturist. Coupled with my buddies conversation about Himokiri Karate rekindled my curiosity for Himokiri Karate.

Now I have a question for you and anyone else. If I for example, develop a super strong fingers/toes and live up to the principle of the Himokiri Karate and try to promote it. Would I be ridiculed for trying to promote a fictional karate style despite having great ability in its principle? Or does this style have to have a real life history to be accepted and not just some overzealous person trying to promote it.

What I am getting at is, for a style to be accepted, does the stylist have to have an amazing technique/fighting skills in it or does the style have to have a respectable history and tradition for it to be acknowledged

P.S: Here is a fun fact, within the fictional world of Baki, many minor characters complained that Shinogis Himokiri Karate was a gimmicky style.

[sensei8]

Now I have a question for you and anyone else. If I for example, develop a super strong fingers/toes and live up to the principle of the Himokiri Karate and try to promote it. Would I be ridiculed for trying to promote a fictional karate style despite having great ability in its principle? Or does this style have to have a real life history to be accepted and not just some overzealous person trying to promote it.

Anything and everything can be ridiculed at some time or another. If any style is consistently effective, then, imho, the name of what it's called is meaningless, and akin to not being able to see the forest because of the trees, or vice versa.

Real life history? You're speaking towards lineage. Himokiri's history has been established from its very first day, somehow and someway. Anything with a path has a beginning, and continues forward until it no longer does for one reason or another. Hence, real life history exists!!

Things are ridiculed for many reasons: Science, jealousy, misunderstandings, just don't like it, and so on and so forth; the list can be quite long, and quite daunting and unforgiving.

If what the style offers helps a student of the MA, imho, who cares what it's name is, or where its name originated. If Shindokan, the style of MA that I've been associated with for over 50 years, had a interesting history and/or name, yet it being effective, I could care less what the name is or it's history or what others thought.

IS IT EFFECTIVE?!?! If not, little matters after that, imho. If so, little matters after that, as well.

[Himokiri Karate]

Now I have a question for you and anyone else. If I for example, develop a super strong fingers/toes and live up to the principle of the Himokiri Karate and try to promote it. Would I be ridiculed for trying to promote a fictional karate style despite having great ability in its principle? Or does this style have to have a real life history to be accepted and not just some overzealous person trying to promote it.

Anything and everything can be ridiculed at some time or another. If any style is consistently effective, then, imho, the name of what it's called is meaningless, and akin to not being able to see the forest because of the trees, or vice versa.

Real life history? You're speaking towards lineage. Himokiri's history has been established from its very first day, somehow and someway. Anything with a path has a beginning, and continues forward until it no longer does for one reason or another. Hence, real life history exists!!

Things are ridiculed for many reasons: Science, jealousy, misunderstandings, just don't like it, and so on and so forth; the list can be quite long, and quite daunting and unforgiving.

If what the style offers helps a student of the MA, imho, who cares what it's name is, or where its name originated. If Shindokan, the style of MA that I've been associated with for over 50 years, had a interesting history and/or name, yet it being effective, I could care less what the name is or it's history or what others thought.

IS IT EFFECTIVE?!?! If not, little matters after that, imho. If so, little matters after that, as well.

Right on!

I was checking out some exotic real life martial arts and quite frankly. There are some martial arts in the real world that are a million times more far fetched than what Himokiri Karate represents.

The one that takes the cake is (or was) yellow bamboo. It was based on no touch energy attacks. They had tons of practioners at some point and all failed against jujitsu fighters around 10 years ago. Afterwards it faded away... This goes back to your effectiveness. If the art had a principle based on sound logic or even if the energy attack worked then this art may have survived then we would all practice it and karateforum would be named yellowbambooforum instead.

Now that I think about it, a person coming up with a martial arts style has to be very careful and capable as well. What I mean is, if tomorrow I decided to promote Himokiri Karate then I have to make sure I have the skills to pull it off otherwise I will end up looking like a crackpot.

[MatsuShinshii]

Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab.

It may be Judo but most likely you are referring to Tegumi. It is similar and has similar throws, sweeps, take downs, etc. but with small differences in the way they are executed and the way it flows in conjunction with strikes, kicks, etc.