Opinions on Self Taught Martial Arts

[JR 137]

My opinion is a bit on the far side on this one but to try and spin it a different way...

The major difference of opinion I think I feel as that I don't actually buy into a great deal of traditional martial arts in the same way as many others. I happen to believe that there are many reasons a person practices the arts. Reasons like art form, health, staying limber, and so on are plenty usable learning in your own. Also, many seem to believe that something like kickboxing/boxing is easier because it's more simple since it's essentially just striking. Well, many applications I have learned for complicated techniques turn these movements into striking. I have learned others but the ones I "believe in" are typically the ones that are turned into striking applications. A simple direct strike is very often better self defense then complicated wrist locks or arm locks and so on. In this way I don't see karate being different then boxing and so on. Sure there will always be some adrenaline and difference from a fight but in the end NOTHING can prepare you 100% for a fight like a fight. Many many traditional martial artists wouldn't hold their own in a fight on the street, most people should know that. On top of everything traditional martial arts can't make somebody who isn't a fighter, a fighter. It tends to draw people who aren't fighters, they may attain extra tools but it won't make them Liyoto Machida!

Karate IS meant to be practiced alone as well as with people. Forms are a great example of its solitary use. If we think of the complex technique in forms we think "no way you can become effective at self defense on your own without a teacher" but if we think of striking being the way to victory, it makes one think it's less of a big deal. The first lesson I learned in 1993 was "in a fight you are extremely likely to only use your most basic and simplist techniques"!

To me the absolute best way to teach self defense is sparring, I watch new students get in there often and trip over themselves under pressure, no matter how much I teach them. The more experienced can actually try things out with more ease. Self defense moves are done too slowly with no pressure and have a hard time holding a candle next to a person in sparring hear swing at you lol. In my opinion though striking something can be a great substitute and if you can successfully imagine your hitting a person I don't feel that "you can't learn effective martial arts" on your own.

If you can honestly video yourself, and break down everything your doing along side somebody else, I don't think for a second you can't learn on your own. Most certainly all won't be learning to fight anyways. I practice Hung Gar Kung Fu. I don't find a great deal of it useful for fighting, but for strengthening my legs, controlling my breathing, memory (there is an entire story verbally spoken with each form), art and more I practice it. I can't see that being so hard to learn online that one couldn't do it. To be honest I don't have a tremendous amount of faith in a lot of teachers. Many IMHO will steer many students in the wrong direction anyways. They will give them a false sense of being able to handle themselves, they will teach techniques improperly and so on. Is the value of a teacher so high when we think of it like this.

I once read that bruce lee use to train with students in football padding and sometimes pieces of mattresses and so on, so that they may go full force and not hold back because he believed you will execute how you practice. In other words you spar tapping people and create a habit of taking it easy, not going full force. When you fight you will be like a fish out of water trying to go full force. I don't know any martial arts studios or teachers that do it like this, so in this theory many will still struggle in a fight to find techniques to successfully defend themselves under pressure.

I say, one can successfully train at home if they have the right mind frame, and dedicate themselves to refining technique. I think it comes down to having a good source, just like having a good teacher. Learning from 15 different and random people online will be rough. Learning from a trusted source is easily doable to me!

I strongly disagree with anybody that says it isn't worth more then a workout. One of the most important things I have learned in life as well as martial arts is not to let the "many" detour you from your path. Seeking advice is great but Follow "your" path and your heart and I assure you, YOU will find the answers that best suit you.

You bring up some very valid points, however...

The Lyoto Machida reference holds very little weight. He's a world class competitor. 99% of the people out there don't have any chance at being on his level, regardless of who's teaching them. I won't be an NBA caliber player, even if I have Phil Jackson coaching me 12 hours a day for the rest of my life. Doesn't mean I can't be a respectable rec level player with some good coaching though.

A lot of people aren't in the MA (traditional MA included) to truly learn to fight. They may have that intention when starting out, but once they realize what's truly involved, they adjust their reasons for being there. They may work hard at various aspects of training, but go through the motions where it counts the most and not give their all in making the essential self defense techniques really work.

Fighting is more a state of mind than anything else IMO. Knowing you're going to get hit, knowing you're going to get hurt, being able to get hit hard, and keep going despite these facts isn't something that can be taught very easily. Honestly, I struggle to believe they can be truly taught at all. On the flip side of that, you genuinely can't tell if someone will or won't hold it together when that moment of truth comes; sometimes the least expected person will get the job done when they have no other choice, and the one you'd expect to take care of themself will fold.

I think the most important thing to teach (other than avoidance of situations and all that stuff) is breaking people of their natural bad instincts. Things like excessively covering up, backing up, putting their head down, using both arms to block a strike, being too intimidated, freezing up, etc. are what'll get someone in far more trouble than anything else. No techniques that the student learned and practiced are going to work in a real situation if the student hasn't broken those instincts. Break those habits, and the student has a far better chance of being able to do what they've been taught.

I've changed my schedule a bit and now go to a class on Tuesday night where our second in line guy teaches, and several higher rank guys attend. My favorite person to spar is a 4th dan, and the single biggest reason why I now go to that class. If I saw him on the streets, I wouldn't be intimidated because he doesn't have a menacing presence. But after sparring him a few times, he became comfortable with giving me a beating (in a good way). He hits hard, he's fast, and he's very sharp (knowing exactly when and where to hit, move, etc.). I love sparring him because every single bad habit I have gets magnified. I never get comfortable nor confident. On the rare occasions I did get comfortable, he changed it up and made me pay for it.

Sparring him, I revert to my natural bad instincts. I back up straight instead of circling or going forward, I cover up too much and can't counter effectively, and I lean forward too much when I try to counter. It's like the teacher stands over us when we're sparring and constantly says "stop backing up! Circle! Stop putting your head down!" I keep wanting to spar him because that's the guy who's going to get me to break my habits. He's the only one I consistently do those things against. After a few weeks with him, I'm getting better. No where near where I want to be, but it's only been a few consistent weeks. For the record, he's not some animal taking his aggression out on me and everyone else in his path. He knows that's what I want him to do and he knows I can handle it. He always gives me feedback between rounds and when we're done, and it's all great feedback and very specific. The instructor and I were talking after class one night about my flaws and progress. I jokingly said "I don't make those mistakes against most other people." He laughed and said "Karate's easy when when you're sparring against people you're better than. The important thing is how you do against people better than you."

What's the point in all of that? IMO MA first and foremost needs to teach people to break those bad instincts. Forget techniques. No technique is going to work when you're covering up in a standing fetal position. Once you've got that part worked out, the techniques will work. A big part of why I like the Kyokushin mentality in MA is that it forces you to stand up and fight. There's a heavy reliance on full contact sparring and not the false sense of security of light contact stop and go point fighting.

Seido Juku isn't bare knuckle full contact karate, but I'm not in my 20s anymore either. With the right teacher and partners, it's what it needs to be.

To wrap it all up, state of mind will make or break a fighter, not techniques. Being able to actually use those techniques depends on if the fighter can hold it together mentally or not. You've got to be willing to take a hit and keep going. Sounds quite simple. Actually doing it is an entirely different matter.

[Luther unleashed]

I make some good points on occasion lol, you however make great points in a much more educated and less erratic manner obviously. Your posts are always well thought out, well put together, and make sense. I appreciate that and apologize that mine can't be what yours are.

I completely agree with you that it's mental. I think of it like this, so I hurt my back again, it happens a few times a year from an old mechanic injury. This time it was pretty bad and I had to teach classes hunched over, actually when it first happened in class I had I finish class sitting on my knees. It was embarrassing and I felt it must have looked unprofessional but nobody even seemed to notice lol. Anyways, it's in my left side lower back, so I typically can kick with much better efficiency then my left, in fact for now I won't be kicking with my left at all. This has happened so many times that my left leg is less flexible, less powerful and less fluid and sharp. It's only a disadvantage if I don't realize this.

My point is that we need to know our weaknesses. Not only from injury or what not, but all weaknesses. I have a tough road ahead of me to be a great TKD kicker, but I know it so if I go with lower kicks and even many more hand techniques i can't imagine it's a true disadvantage really. I think to know your own limitations and to be realistic is a huge part of being successful in a fight.

I'm not proud that I have been on fights. I have said before I used to be a troubled teen and I got my butt kicked in the streets more then many have probably fought. For me I have a pretty good concept of what's going to be accessible to me, and functional. Not everybody will understand these things and that's the hard part. I'll admit I'm short sighted as I can't always relate to certain differences in people's abilities.

I'm with you on not being into bare knuckle martial arts lol, in the end you and I would probably do a better job avoiding a fight though, then a younger bare knuckle fighter. In this way we will achieve better "self protection" which is as important as good fighting skills.

[JR 137]

Thanks for the compliments. I don't see it, but I'll take it:)

In the long post, I forgot the most important thing: None of that is possible without a teacher and/or partner! You can't simulate someone hitting you. You can't fight someone who brings out the worst in you and magnifies your flaws if you're not fighting anyone. Practicing a kata a million times certainly won't reveal those flaws. Hitting a bag won't either.

I've been hitting a bag for several months now. It's really improved my hand speed, power and combinations. It certainly hasn't helped my reaction time nor my ability to see something coming and react appropriately. I visualize an opponent every second, and it still hasn't helped in that regard when I've got an actual opponent in front of me.

I hit the bag at my local YMCA. I've had a lot of people compliment me and say things like I must be a great fighter. I always smile and say something along the lines of "Thanks, but that bag doesn't move out of the way and try to hit me back."

Being self taught is (hopefully) better than nothing. But without a resisting partner, how good can you honestly get? Only as good as a guy hitting a punching bag that doesn't make him miss and hit him back.

I've been in too many fights too. Not sure if that helps or hinders my view. I think it helps.

[Alan Armstrong]

Being completely self taught ma and isolated from any type of contact does seem a bit strange.

Maybe not being formally taught ma, is a better way of defining the question.

Being a self taught martial artist would have it's issues with trying to enter in to a ma tournament and belt ranking placement complications would compound problems also.

Street fighting is far different than class room fighting. As street fighters are not formally taught, someone is ultimately giving them a lesson in the moment and for real! The idea of tapping out of a fight "What's that" getting knocked out more like.

When I switched from street fighting to class room fighting, I remember feeling very vulnerable, trying to defend myself in uncomfortable posses and positions.

I remember very clearly thinking during "the transition" of street fighting to dojo sparring 'Don't get caught up in a street brawl or I'm going to get beaten up badly. The transition from street to dojo was a feeling of total vulnerability! Not good at one or the other, was a great motivator to train hard and fast to overcome the insecuritys.

Stretching leg muscles was a very un-street like thing to do. All of a sudden there was a uniform and mats, mouth guards and padded gloves... instructors that pushed me beyond my own self imposed limitations. Instructors that could do seemingly impossible fighting technique's with ease.

After some of my first Karate workouts, I could hardly move the next day from sore aching muscles. Never would have pushed myself as hard as my Sensei did. Never new that I had so many muscles that could hurt at the same time.

As street fighting was very different, I found myself still getting hurt but from a more experienced person/s. Thinking back I'm not sure why I subjected myself to being beaten up very often "formally"

Street fighter types learn from everyone at anytime and not twice a week in a gym. It is either (flight or fight) sprinting away as not to get beaten up or getting stuck in fighting as fast as possible.

Self taught street fighters do develope their fighting skills naturally. Only thing is that is it a path to hospital and or prison time. Or more drastically lose of life either way.

Personally self taught fighting equals getting arrested or worse, so I joined a karate club instead.

Street fighters (self taught) are not usally living in isolation, they are usually affiliated with a gang or group. Knives or sharp objects do creep in to street fights and they can get used against you, usually from someone other than the person you are fighting with.

I found that gangs and ma clubs still are both group based but the ma clubs types of people were more helpful and law abiding. This issue was the most defining factor for me to give up being self taught and pursue instruction.

Never will I give up my (self taught) street fighting background and as I enjoy teaching self defence (with self taught fighting experience) seems like I will never need to.

[neoravencroft]

I hit the bag at my local YMCA.

Wish I had a bag at my YMCA.

[Luther unleashed]

Thanks for the compliments. I don't see it, but I'll take it:)

In the long post, I forgot the most important thing: None of that is possible without a teacher and/or partner! You can't simulate someone hitting you. You can't fight someone who brings out the worst in you and magnifies your flaws if you're not fighting anyone. Practicing a kata a million times certainly won't reveal those flaws. Hitting a bag won't either.

I just don't agree. I think a teacher is always necessary to pass down information and knowledge effectively. Not at least in the sense you mean it, as in right there with you. If chuck Norris made videos and sent them to you don't you feel you could learn a great deal from him? Also, as for feedback, it's the easiest way BUT with today's technology of being able to video yourself and compare, it's not the same as it once was. In fact I'm an iPhone user, I do all my videos on iPhone. There's programs (apps) for everything. You can video yourself in slow motion, you can align your video with another, countless ways to correct your "form"!

It's easy to say it will be harder, but to me it's absolutely doable and a teacher isn't required. There are students that I teach hundreds of times and to be quite frank about it they still just don't get it. There are students I teach one time and one time only and they get it. The student who my teacher thousand times would probably not be successful learning on their own, for the students that gets it after lesson one would have a much better success rate learning on their own.

Again I have personally witnessed many bad teachers and I think it's fair to say there are more that will get you into trouble then will get you where you want to be. Often people think that they want to learn from the guy who is exceptionally fast and has exceptional technique because they somehow think that's going to translate to them. Many of us though that being able to perform technique and being talented is far from the same thing as being able to successfully translate that to your students.

I'm going to give a history of Tang Soo Do, because you can google it, but you won't see a history that says simply it's a Korean variant of Shotokan Karate but it is. I watch many videos on the two because I'm Tang Soo Do I have learned plenty of applications to forms, BUT Shotokan has many more, part of that is because they simply focus on deriving more fighting techniques out of the forms, which are where Tang Soo Do forms come from of course. Hung gar King fu is this way, they really focus on what they can derive from forms. I enjoy this very much, and it's one of the greatest areas of interest to me. Videos and books provide me with a great deal of ideas and often specific techniques. I'm not boastful, and consider myself humble and secure as a person. I will say though that I have always had an easy time picking up techniques, as a 16 year mechanic I often joke with my wife calling myself the mechanic in class. I'm not a real flashy kicker, I'm not very strong, but I do have some qualities such as being able to understand leverage, angles, distance, and timing very well this the "mechanic" term. Maybe it's that my mind is geared towards it, maybe there is such a thing as mechanically inclined, I don't know, but I do know I can pick up a technique that I see others struggling with. Maybe a person who can't pick it up easily will have a hell of a time trying to pick it up from a book or video, but somebody who gets it a little easier certainly can pick up techniques from books or videos, I can tell you for a fact that I have done so and been complimented on those techniques in a studio.

Training from no experience from the ground up? This may be different then what I'm saying, so I think there are limits to learning this way, especially from scratch.

[JR 137]

Thanks for the compliments. I don't see it, but I'll take it:)

In the long post, I forgot the most important thing: None of that is possible without a teacher and/or partner! You can't simulate someone hitting you. You can't fight someone who brings out the worst in you and magnifies your flaws if you're not fighting anyone. Practicing a kata a million times certainly won't reveal those flaws. Hitting a bag won't either.

I just don't agree. I think a teacher is always necessary to pass down information and knowledge effectively. Not at least in the sense you mean it, as in right there with you. If chuck Norris made videos and sent them to you don't you feel you could learn a great deal from him? Also, as for feedback, it's the easiest way BUT with today's technology of being able to video yourself and compare, it's not the same as it once was. In fact I'm an iPhone user, I do all my videos on iPhone. There's programs (apps) for everything. You can video yourself in slow motion, you can align your video with another, countless ways to correct your "form"!

It's easy to say it will be harder, but to me it's absolutely doable and a teacher isn't required. There are students that I teach hundreds of times and to be quite frank about it they still just don't get it. There are students I teach one time and one time only and they get it. The student who my teacher thousand times would probably not be successful learning on their own, for the students that gets it after lesson one would have a much better success rate learning on their own.

Again I have personally witnessed many bad teachers and I think it's fair to say there are more that will get you into trouble then will get you where you want to be. Often people think that they want to learn from the guy who is exceptionally fast and has exceptional technique because they somehow think that's going to translate to them. Many of us though that being able to perform technique and being talented is far from the same thing as being able to successfully translate that to your students.

I'm going to give a history of Tang Soo Do, because you can google it, but you won't see a history that says simply it's a Korean variant of Shotokan Karate but it is. I watch many videos on the two because I'm Tang Soo Do I have learned plenty of applications to forms, BUT Shotokan has many more, part of that is because they simply focus on deriving more fighting techniques out of the forms, which are where Tang Soo Do forms come from of course. Hung gar King fu is this way, they really focus on what they can derive from forms. I enjoy this very much, and it's one of the greatest areas of interest to me. Videos and books provide me with a great deal of ideas and often specific techniques. I'm not boastful, and consider myself humble and secure as a person. I will say though that I have always had an easy time picking up techniques, as a 16 year mechanic I often joke with my wife calling myself the mechanic in class. I'm not a real flashy kicker, I'm not very strong, but I do have some qualities such as being able to understand leverage, angles, distance, and timing very well this the "mechanic" term. Maybe it's that my mind is geared towards it, maybe there is such a thing as mechanically inclined, I don't know, but I do know I can pick up a technique that I see others struggling with. Maybe a person who can't pick it up easily will have a hell of a time trying to pick it up from a book or video, but somebody who gets it a little easier certainly can pick up techniques from books or videos, I can tell you for a fact that I have done so and been complimented on those techniques in a studio.

Training from no experience from the ground up? This may be different then what I'm saying, so I think there are limits to learning this way, especially from scratch.

We're actually closer in opinion that you think (I think). Someone with plenty of experience, such as yourself can easily learn from video, books, etc. What you're doing is seeing others' methods, viewpoints, etc., and incorporating it into what you know. You take what fits, and you discard what doesn't. For every video or book you've taken from, I'm sure you discarded dozens of others. You've got a valid informed opinion.

You're not a kid sitting in front of YouTube watching a Kyokushin kata channel and imitating it thinking you're really learning karate. You're not buying Mas Oyama's This is Karate book, practicing everything you read, and telling yourself you're near black belt level because you did all the kyu level kata (and possibly correctly if you video yourself and critique yourself) and did all Oyama's techniques. Lets just say someone did all of that, and actually looks presentable; do you think they'll be able to put it all together once they actually walk into a dojo and and have to spar someone?

Technology has changed just about everything. There are online MA courses where you video yourself and a teacher from the system videos you back with feedback. That's not self taught because a teacher is correcting things. Not as effectively as in person and in real time, but it isn't self taught.

Ashihara karate has an online course, or at least did at one point. The guy in charge of it had some great insight on it on another forum. He felt it most benefited people with previous experience that had a solid foundation in karate, and having a partner to work with was the most important thing. He also said that he had a dojo owner as a 'customer' who left his old organization and wanted to learn and teach Ashihara karate, but didn't have anyone anywhere near him to learn from in person. There was a lot of back and forth video analysis, and the guy went to visit the dojo in person after some time (I'm pretty sure the dojo paid for him to come visit). He said it was pretty effective, but there was still a good amount of polishing of techniques to be done.

I guess you really have to define what self taught truly is. From scratch with no prior experience? Or a person such as yourself incorporating things into your knowledge? You also have the benefit of having students to try things out on. A YouTube MAist may or may not. And if that one has someone, how good is that partner? Two guys with no formal training watching YouTube videos and then putting on sparring gear and going at it isn't going to be very productive. Hopefully they don't hurt each other too badly.

[Luther unleashed]

I get what your saying. As you said it just depends on the perspective and what exactly we mean by self taught martial arts.

I agree with what you're saying about some of the online programs that are out there, you're getting feedback so it's not completely self-taught. There are many different angles to this whole topic obviously.

[sensei8]

Being self taught has its merits, I suppose, however, I'd tread those waters quite carefully as to not picking up any bad habits. Yet, how does one not pick up any bad habits when there's no qualified instructor in sight?!?! How'd they ever recognize a bad habit even exists?!?! If they, by chance, were to discover said bad habit did exist, how would they know how to correct it properly?!?!

[Luther unleashed]

Being self taught has its merits, I suppose, however, I'd tread those waters quite carefully as to not picking up any bad habits. Yet, how does one not pick up any bad habits when there's no qualified instructor in sight?!?! How'd they ever recognize a bad habit even exists?!?! If they, by chance, were to discover said bad habit did exist, how would they know how to correct it properly?!?!

The quality of the techniques would come from detailed books or videos. I could argue there is, at times, more detail in a book or video then from an instructor. Sometimes due to the fact that the instructor isn't good, isn't detail oriented, or simply has a bigger class. I experience this often as I typically do not have a great deal of help but many times I have a larger class. Very hard to treat a large group like a private lesson. This could almost be a separate topic but I think it's fair to throw it in there as to what type of instruction one is getting from an actual instructor and I think it's safe to say it will vary just as the quality of home training will vary.