Respect on the street and dojo

[Alan Armstrong]

Growing up in a concrete jungle (inner city) one soon finds out about how important respect is. Oriental martial art societys of the past seem no different.

Oriental Martial art knowledge in the past, was usually passed to those that have respect, because it isn't natural to want to share with a person that doesn't give it (some mutual respect) Martial arts was only taught to none family students that have respect and patience. Now days, money can override this virtuous way. Now in Dojos and the like, respect is taught when in the past respect was already there.

Now martial art teachers today have become a type of teacher of respect, when in the past this was not needed. Bowing and nodding, touching gloves before and after sparring was the normal Dojo etiquette.

Respect on the street is far more complicated than bowing and nodding; it is an attitude that continually needs adjusting depending where you are. As there is office etiquette there is also street etiquette. Street etiquette isn't learned in the suburbs; it is learned on the street with what is called (Solid Respect)

Suburban's that need self defense usually learn a type ma combate and learn about respect and concrete junglers become street fighters learning from the school of hard knocks boxing club. Both eventually learn how to fight and may obtain a belt ranking, but the respect differences are miles apart. Boxing is all about heart and respect. Martial artsist still need to catch up with the boxers in this respect.

The main issue I aiming for, is that I never needed to learn respect from a Sensei in a dojo. My street respect was far more profound than what was taught in a dojo and I didn't need to pay a Sensei for something I new very well.

As growing up, respect is earned and not demanded it was an issue for me with one of my instructors of martial arts. I was fine with the dojo etiquette but to be bowing in the street; No Way! Also to call him Sensei while in the street. This is fake suburbia respect, for me it was totally unreal. If my Sensei was Japanese or the same scenario had taken place in Japan, I'm fine with it.

Also having a Chinese martial art teacher, I called him Sifu all the time everywhere and bow to him everywhere, normal right!

Imgine for a moment (wearing street clothing) depending on the color of your skin and you start bowing to another person in public, could have it's consequences and it could be mistaken by onlookers as something other than respect.

With my instructors/teachers that were street wise, there was never an issue with respect. In the street it was a greeting with a, light knuckle tap, a genuine mutual smile and a shaking of hands.

[sensei8]

How can one be viewed as incorrect if they're doing it out of habit and/or respect?? Sure, on the outside of that circle, it appears one way to that person, and that is reality to THAT person, but it's assumption by THAT person is way off base.

I never bowed to Soke and/or Dai-Soke outside of the dojo/Hombu all of the time, but on the occasions that I did, there was a valid reason in me to do so. I don't need another person and/or MAist to qualify my reasons because it's MY CHOICE, and my choice alone.

Looking down on that or not, that too, is a choice others might make; it's their right, as it's my right as well.

[Alan Armstrong]

It was my right not to bow to a ma teacher outside of the dojo, he told me that I was wrong not to bow to him. I told him that I was not wearing a GI.

He told me that I should bow to him inside or outside of a dojo, wearing a Gi or not. I disagreed with him. Our relationship went down hill from there on.

[Luther unleashed]

Growing up in a concrete jungle (inner city) one soon finds out about how important respect is. Oriental martial art societys of the past seem no different.

Oriental Martial art knowledge in the past, was usually passed to those that have respect, because it isn't natural to want to share with a person that doesn't give it (some mutual respect) Martial arts was only taught to none family students that have respect and patience. Now days, money can override this virtuous way. Now in Dojos and the like, respect is taught when in the past respect was already there.

Now martial art teachers today have become a type of teacher of respect, when in the past this was not needed. Bowing and nodding, touching gloves before and after sparring was the normal Dojo etiquette.

Respect on the street is far more complicated than bowing and nodding; it is an attitude that continually needs adjusting depending where you are. As there is office etiquette there is also street etiquette. Street etiquette isn't learned in the suburbs; it is learned on the street with what is called (Solid Respect)

Suburban's that need self defense usually learn a type ma combate and learn about respect and concrete junglers become street fighters learning from the school of hard knocks boxing club. Both eventually learn how to fight and may obtain a belt ranking, but the respect differences are miles apart. Boxing is all about heart and respect. Martial artsist still need to catch up with the boxers in this respect.

The main issue I aiming for, is that I never needed to learn respect from a Sensei in a dojo. My street respect was far more profound than what was taught in a dojo and I didn't need to pay a Sensei for something I new very well.

As growing up, respect is earned and not demanded it was an issue for me with one of my instructors of martial arts. I was fine with the dojo etiquette but to be bowing in the street; No Way! Also to call him Sensei while in the street. This is fake suburbia respect, for me it was totally unreal. If my Sensei was Japanese or the same scenario had taken place in Japan, I'm fine with it.

Also having a Chinese martial art teacher, I called him Sifu all the time everywhere and bow to him everywhere, normal right!

Imgine for a moment (wearing street clothing) depending on the color of your skin and you start bowing to another person in public, could have it's consequences and it could be mistaken by onlookers as something other than respect.

With my instructors/teachers that were street wise, there was never an issue with respect. In the street it was a greeting with a, light knuckle tap, a genuine mutual smile and a shaking of hands.

So I moved around a lot, but I often lived in poor places and fought a lot. I grew up around gangs and fighting and guns and so on. I for one, can relate to the back round you speak of.

As for respect I strongly disagree with your assessment that the streets are similar respect to the dojo. The main difference I see is humility. You see, in the streets I grew up in, respect was forced by gear and strength, not through humility and genuine peaceful nature. Respect in the dojo isn't typically about strength but having a humble and kind/accepting heart. At least that what it should look like.

Now when you say Marta arts places need to catch up to boxing, I think some of the silly places that are sadly often linked with Taekwondo in america, may be on this position but may are not playing catch up to boxing. Many good places are a good Deal ahead of boxing on many ways, but let's not forget every place is different.

Where you are from has a big role in martial arts and your journey because if your looking from self defence you will seek it out, if it's sport activity for your kids you will seek it out an so on. I grew up strut wit ad fighting so yes I enjoy the more direct application server and finding the stuff that works based on real life more but that's me.

Lastly the one thing that always drew me to martial arts was the humility and true respect. Not respecting me because I'm good or scarry, but because we are human beings and I'll give you respect until you cross a certain line that changes thing. In the streets as a younger I had a temper and attitude problem. Martial art helped me like counseling, and to learn true humility and respect, the street never did that for me. I do agree that you do not need to bow to an instructor outside of the dojo though, it's not the time or place.

[Emanon]

It's nobody's business so I won't get into it but I too am from the streets and it wasn't a good place were I grew up...that's all I'll say. But as far as respect in and out of a dojo? I don't get the point of the OP's views. He isn't alone however because it seems many these days have a skewed view of karate.

When you have choices you choose what fits you best. Don't choose something that doesn't suit you then complain about it. In other words...let's take this forum or any other as a small example. Maybe you have a cell phone and text with people all the time. On your phone you can say whatever you please. On a forum you can't as there are rules. You can complain about that all you want but the fact of the matter is that a forum is "it's own thing." It is designed a certain way for a purpose and if it's not for you then go someplace else. You have choices.

People do the same thing with karate. "karate would be better if it were more like boxing or this or that." What? It is what it is....if you like boxing then do that. If you want your karate to be more like whatever, then create your own system and call it something else. Karate is it's own package and what it comes with is what makes it work. Remove something and it becomes something different. Sometimes the message is in doing things we don't like. That is where we find out what we are made of. Worrying about what others think of us means we still have more in life to learn. If I like and respect someone I show it however I choose wherever I choose without concern for who is looking or what they think whether its a fist bump, a shake a hug or a bow. That's my business and screw whatever anyone thinks. I had street codes to live by also and have had friends killed over such silly things. Today, due to my training and respect I understand those things and can still carry myself through bad areas, but don't have to follow such codes because once again....there is nothing I have to prove. But karate is what it is and if its not to your liking because of certain things then maybe it's just not your thing?

I do agree however that a lot of it has gone too far. Most of it is pretty new with all the respect and bowing and karate uniforms etc. This was started by Japan not Okinawa so it's fairly new. Okinawan karate at its start wasn't like it is now with all the demi gods and the over respect. A lot of it goes overboard. Respect is good...subservience and butt kissing is not.

I never demanded that from my students and felt we were equals. I may bow to them first. And usually out of the dojo I would tell them to stop....but they never listened...lol. You don't have to call me sensei out here..."oh..ok...sorry sensei." Geez!

[RJCKarate]

My sensei is sensei everywhere. It wouldn't occur to me to not call them sensei - whether it's in Okinawa or Australia.

However, I do not feel the requirement to bow in public to my sensei, but my sensei wouldn't expect that. When we're not in the dojo, there is no necessity to draw attention to our karate craziness. We can nod, shake hands, converse, whatever.

[JR 137]

It's nobody's business so I won't get into it but I too am from the streets and it wasn't a good place were I grew up...that's all I'll say. But as far as respect in and out of a dojo? I don't get the point of the OP's views. He isn't alone however because it seems many these days have a skewed view of karate.

When you have choices you choose what fits you best. Don't choose something that doesn't suit you then complain about it. In other words...let's take this forum or any other as a small example. Maybe you have a cell phone and text with people all the time. On your phone you can say whatever you please. On a forum you can't as there are rules. You can complain about that all you want but the fact of the matter is that a forum is "it's own thing." It is designed a certain way for a purpose and if it's not for you then go someplace else. You have choices.

People do the same thing with karate. "karate would be better if it were more like boxing or this or that." What? It is what it is....if you like boxing then do that. If you want your karate to be more like whatever, then create your own system and call it something else. Karate is it's own package and what it comes with is what makes it work. Remove something and it becomes something different. Sometimes the message is in doing things we don't like. That is where we find out what we are made of. Worrying about what others think of us means we still have more in life to learn. If I like and respect someone I show it however I choose wherever I choose without concern for who is looking or what they think whether its a fist bump, a shake a hug or a bow. That's my business and screw whatever anyone thinks. I had street codes to live by also and have had friends killed over such silly things. Today, due to my training and respect I understand those things and can still carry myself through bad areas, but don't have to follow such codes because once again....there is nothing I have to prove. But karate is what it is and if its not to your liking because of certain things then maybe it's just not your thing?

I do agree however that a lot of it has gone too far. Most of it is pretty new with all the respect and bowing and karate uniforms etc. This was started by Japan not Okinawa so it's fairly new. Okinawan karate at its start wasn't like it is now with all the demi gods and the over respect. A lot of it goes overboard. Respect is good...subservience and butt kissing is not.

I never demanded that from my students and felt we were equals. I may bow to them first. And usually out of the dojo I would tell them to stop....but they never listened...lol. You don't have to call me sensei out here..."oh..ok...sorry sensei." Geez!

Great post, and welcome to Karate Forums. You seem to have some very good insight and experience in MA. I suggest starting a thread in the introduction section of the forum so we can get to know you better and properly welcome you.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Inflated egos and entitlement are nothing new in the martial arts. People with these unpleasant and irritating character flaws are just as common in martial arts as any other group.

Respect and the ways to get it is exactly the same as anywhere else. Genuine respect cannot be demanded in any way. It comes from the way one behaves around others and how one treats people.

A fair person gets respect

An honest and ethical person gets respect

A humble and modest person gets respect

A kind and helpful person gets respect

A person who listens gets respect

If such a person is one's sensei, a bow or a good handshake is probably appropriate.

[Luther unleashed]

Inflated egos and entitlement are nothing new in the martial arts. People with these unpleasant and irritating character flaws are just as common in martial arts as any other group.

Respect and the ways to get it is exactly the same as anywhere else. Genuine respect cannot be demanded in any way. It comes from the way one behaves around others and how one treats people.

A fair person gets respect

An honest and ethical person gets respect

A humble and modest person gets respect

A kind and helpful person gets respect

A person who listens gets respect

If such a person is one's sensei, a bow or a good handshake is probably appropriate.

This was said with a tremendous amount of non-bias opinion and dignity. It's very educated and reeks of raw and genuine directness. Oh hell, it was just good lol.

[Alan Armstrong]

Respect is something societies need in order to live and survive in them. The neglect for a place shows the lack of respect people have for that place. Japanese gardens for instance are groomed to perfection. This is no accident!

Respect for one's self and fellow humans has to be a good thing.

Respect for one's environments home, work and play, has to be a good thing.

Respect in the martial arts, has to be a good thing. How are we going to survive without it?