Oldest style of kararte

[116.ghost-thunder.828]

I was wondering what is the oldest style of Karate (outside of Naha-te, tamri-te, Shuri-te )? I heard that Goju-ryu was the oldest. I ask because I would like to know because I would like to prosue Goju-ryu and that would just be something on top of that and I just really like Goju-ryu (It was the style I was taught as a kid )

[Montana]

Of the choices listed, Shorin Ryu is the oldest (actually, 2nd). The oldest being Okinawan Te, which is still found, but rarely.

[DaveB]

Actually as unpopular as it may be, I'm pretty sure that of that list Shotokan is the oldest, in that Funakoshi was teaching before Itosu named his style Shorin ryu. People often don't realise that Funakoshi was considerably older than most of the founders of the various Shorin ryu styles.

That being said tracing shotokan to Funakoshi technically makes Shotokan a style of Shorin ryu.

Shotokan as the modern Japanese art is indeed younger than the others, but none of these things are cut and dried because each teacher does his own thing and everybody learned from everyone else.

I consider Goju ryu as one of the youngest styles.

The oldest IMO is Matsumura Sieto Shorin Ryu. A style that called itself Shorin ryu because that's what everyone else was doing (and Shorin ryu basically just means Shaolin style - a general reference to kung fu origin rather than a statement of lineage).

Matsumura seito is the personal style of the legendary bushi Matsumura and was originally passed down only through his family. So it is older than Itosu's Shorin and different in a number of ways since Itosu was mostly taught by a Tomari guy.

[Spartacus Maximus]

It is not very accurate to include any "te" as "karate styles" because these are earlier forms of martial arts. Matsumura Sokon is the originator of Shorin Ryu but it was called "Tang(China) Hand" in his lifetime. Everything before that is one form or another of Chuan Fa, which is a generic name for chinese boxing.

It is difficult to know with any reliable accuracy what the oldest system is. Tomari-te, Shuri-te or Naha-te were just local interpretations. Today all of these localities are within less than 5km from each other and all are within Naha city today.The most probable scenario is that what became "tuidi" was developed in the Ryukyu kingdom around the same time cultural and political exchanges with Ming China began.

It really depends on where one starts to look, but for strictly "karate styles" the oldest one to be defined as "XYZ ryu" is probably Shorin ryu. Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu existed, but were not called that until later. Shorin ryu was named and systemized when Itosu was teaching it. Itosu was older by a generation than Miyagi(Goju ryu) Uechi(Uechi ryu).

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

I was wondering what is the oldest style of Karate (outside of Naha-te, tamri-te, Shuri-te )? I heard that Goju-ryu was the oldest. I ask because I would like to know because I would like to prosue Goju-ryu and that would just be something on top of that and I just really like Goju-ryu (It was the style I was taught as a kid )

A quick search on wikipedia indicates the following as first naming dates (the first official naming of the styles):

Goju Ryu 1929

Shorin Ryu 1933

Shotokan 1936

However, the question can probably not be conclusively solved because the records at the time when these styles started are scetchy at best, likely oral.

Anyhow, the underlying question is what defines a style? Is it the teaching (which strongly depends on the teacher; and even the students), is it the name, or is it the grand master associated with that style?

[JR 137]

Shotokan wasn't intended as a name to Funakoshi's style. It was the name given to his dojo by the students who built it for him. Shoto was his pen name, kan meaning house.

I read that on the internet, so it has to be true.

[Kusotare]

However, the question can probably not be conclusively solved because the records at the time when these styles started are scetchy at best, likely oral.

Anyhow, the underlying question is what defines a style? Is it the teaching (which strongly depends on the teacher; and even the students), is it the name, or is it the grand master associated with that style?

Trying to age a karate style is like trying to age a species of creature.

All martial systems owe their existence to earlier fighting methods (some dating back centuries). So at what point does one evolve into another.

Also as Goju Bahrain says - How do you define 'style'?

What is the registration point - ie is it when the creator first develops it? Is it when the school is named, is it when the school is registered with a governing body etc. etc.

All semantics really, but if you look at the ancient martial traditions of feudal Japan, the term Koryu is used to define a school that was founded prior to the Meiji restoration (1868).

The Dai Nippon Butoku-kai (one of the oldest national bodies of martial arts in Japan) recognise Goju Ryu Karate as a "Koryu".

As far as I know, no other karate system is recognised as such.

K.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The only thing that can be know with any accuracy, is the approximate time each "style" was officially named. The problem with this of course is that none of them actually began at the same time. Shorin ryu, Goju ryu and Uechi ryu existed and were taught on Okinawa long before being named, never mind before karate was introduced to Japan in the early 1900's. Karate or "tuidi" was the only name before the notion of ryuha or "style" was introduced.

[Kusotare]

For those interested:

The following 'styles' attended the annual Kyoto Butokusai (held at the Butokuden (head quarters of the Butoku-kai)) in May 1939 where, they officially registered their names...

Shotokan-ryu

Wado-ryu Karate-jutsu

Goju-ryu

Shito-ryu

Shindo Shinzen-ryu

Kosun-ryu (later re-named Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu)

Kushin-ryu.

As far as identifying groups by names - I think this is a good starting point.

K.