Sparring against other arts.

[bushido_man96]

DaveB, I like your interpretations there on adapting what you already know to the situation. Thanks for that response!

[DaveB]

You are welcome. I enjoy discussion about using martial arts, but sadly they are few and short lived.

[bushido_man96]

You made a lot of interesting points in regards to changing and adapting things to work against different styles, and I think all too often MAists will get caught up in what the other style offers, and forget what their current style offers, so its great to see a breakdown like that.

I do think there is something to be said about exposing oneself to other styles, though, and a little training in different styles to see how they train, and why they approach their training like they do, can be an eye-opener as to what other methods are available. Both are good approaches to take, for sure.

[sensei8]

Why is anyone so concerned with styles, and not the practitioner??

Styles are just a thing...while practitioners aren't. Sure, the practitioner is the product of a style, however, the practitioner has to execute said style effectively for the style to be of any concern. This isn't easy!!

Even in a tournament setting, styles, to me, mean nothing; a styles never beat me...the practitioner did! And on the streets, wow, forget about styles because people don't wear the badge of any style, and while it can be discerned as to what the style being utilized, if any at all, it's the individual in front of me that concerns me for the moment.

I'm attacked...I defend!! I attack...he/she defends!! Not the style, but the individual.

I've more things to be concerned about at that moment than wondering what style, if any, is being used against me.

[DWx]

Why is anyone so concerned with styles, and not the practitioner??

Styles are just a thing...while practitioners aren't. Sure, the practitioner is the product of a style, however, the practitioner has to execute said style effectively for the style to be of any concern. This isn't easy!!

Even in a tournament setting, styles, to me, mean nothing; a styles never beat me...the practitioner did! And on the streets, wow, forget about styles because people don't wear the badge of any style, and while it can be discerned as to what the style being utilized, if any at all, it's the individual in front of me that concerns me for the moment.

I'm attacked...I defend!! I attack...he/she defends!! Not the style, but the individual.

I've more things to be concerned about at that moment than wondering what style, if any, is being used against me.

Sure but in a tournament context style will tell you what a person is likely to have in their toolbox and how they might go constructing their fight. Individualty counts for something but recognising you're up against a TKD fighter might tip you off that they will try to kick and stay at long range. A Muay Thai fighter will be comfortable using their elbows and knees and fight closer. A boxer is unlikely to kick and might try to work closer.

There even exists styles within a styles and you can use this knowledge to adjust your gameplan accordingly. For example on my tournament circuit I know the Russian team are very technical and will favour a cat and mouse style of sparring as they attempt to land the high scoring shots. The Croatian team on the other hand are more rough and ready and will fight simple but hard. I can use this info to infer something about my opponent before I even step on the mat and use it to guide how I will fight.

All fighters are different but it's still a good idea to be aware of what they might do rather than go in blind. Otherwise you end up being reactive rather than proactive.

[sensei8]

Still, are you, Danielle, fighting against TKD or the practitioner?!? If you're fighting against TKD, then you, imho, have already lost. If you're fighting against the practitioner, then you've a chance to win.

[DWx]

Still, are you, Danielle, fighting against TKD or the practitioner?!? If you're fighting against TKD, then you, imho, have already lost. If you're fighting against the practitioner, then you've a chance to win.

The two elements don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I just use the information to inform me of what it likely to happen. As the bout progressives and you learn more about the individual, you can keep reevaluating your assessment of them.

[DaveB]

You made a lot of interesting points in regards to changing and adapting things to work against different styles, and I think all too often MAists will get caught up in what the other style offers, and forget what their current style offers, so its great to see a breakdown like that.

It's not so much about combating other styles as it is about exploring Shotokan.

Shotokan that everyone thinks of is a combat sport based on kendo. It has almost nothing to do with the karate that birthed it and which practitioners skirt around through their kata practice. I'm not saying that the sport style is bad, but like any game it is it's own specialist area, not especially geared towards ring fighting or mma etc.

The art presented in the kata of Shotokan is a more general purpose fighting art. In fact Shotokan is really a collection of a range of Okinawan/Chinese fighting methods which you can refine down to suit your individual talents and attributes.

For example, the breakdown I listed above gave examples from 6 kata:

Hiean Shodan,

Hiean Nidan,

Hangetsu,

Jion,

Tekki Shodan

And Bassai dai.

Right there is a single fighting system syllabus, modelled on deep study of kata just as the Okinawan karateka of old did it. Core concepts from each kata interlock with the others to give guidance for entering, taking initiative, defending and regaining initiative, landing blows and finishing a fight. Plus there's a ton of stuff I didn't mention in those forms like timing, escaping holds, setting up throws, dealing with clinches... Years of study if you so wish it, and yet it is a combination of kata that I had never considered before my post.

As to the style issue, I also think it is a useful indicator of things to know how to combat, like those nasty kicks to the thigh. But over reliance on a stereotype is as harmful as helpful.

That being said I am a great believer in the benefits of learning to apply a given style as it was intended rather than patching together techniques because you have seen them work on the TV.

[sensei8]

Still, are you, Danielle, fighting against TKD or the practitioner?!? If you're fighting against TKD, then you, imho, have already lost. If you're fighting against the practitioner, then you've a chance to win.

The two elements don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I just use the information to inform me of what it likely to happen. As the bout progressives and you learn more about the individual, you can keep reevaluating your assessment of them.

From that point of view...I can concur!!

[bushido_man96]

I think Danielle makes good point. Yes, we do fight the person, and the person fights us. But, as creatures of habit, when we train, we will likely take on the characteristics of the style we train in, or more to the point, the way we train.