Sparring against other arts.

[sensei8]

I think Danielle makes good point. Yes, we do fight the person, and the person fights us. But, as creatures of habit, when we train, we will likely take on the characteristics of the style we train in, or more to the point, the way we train.

Because that's all we know, for that moment! The style is the proponent of ourselves.

[Hawkmoon]

I think Danielle makes good point. Yes, we do fight the person, and the person fights us. But, as creatures of habit, when we train, we will likely take on the characteristics of the style we train in, or more to the point, the way we train.

Because that's all we know, for that moment! The style is the proponent of ourselves.

Well said!

You as a person in an art do what they do and fight as they fight ... outside they do not!

You have to learn and adapt, some find working with other systems a good eye opener, others go deeper and deeper into the art they are doing!

[doublejabbing]

Having a sense of different styles will allow you to adjust to your opponent.

[Hawkmoon]

to add...

I've been working with my sons Kickboxing school in an attempt to make it interesting for him .. hes been a little less than enthusiastic for a while now!

Since joining in (in joggers and a tee, a prearranged agreement with school instructor) he's been more interested in his art again so its seems to be working!

To explain the agreement, when I train I do not wear (and so advertise) my Gi or rank of my system!

I have no conflict of bruised pride in this as I will only 'train' with them once a week, I see it of mutual benefit to us all. The differences between how they fight and how I fight is going to help them as much as it will help me. (more importantly my son!)

Only a couple of the students know who I am and what I am the rest have no idea, that's how the head teacher wants so I am happy to follow his wishes.

The other morning I was sparring and was asked by one of the BBs who was standing in for the head instructor to 'not kick the legs/thighs', he was unhappy about the contact and didn't want any knee injuries on his watch!

(He is not aware of the who or what of me)

I was not bothered by the request I just aimed at the ribs instead, but as much of my many of my setups use or even opens on a leg kicks I was for the next two or three bouts like a fish out of water, it took an age to adjust to what for me was a restriction!

Like wise as they do strike to the face, in knockdown we do not punch the face I made the transition to how they fight by going into 'clicker' mode, an adjustment that takes about 2 smacks to the head to kick in as it were but a good eye opener!

To me the differences between how they fight and how I fight, is quiet visual as well as physical difference, they attack middle and high I attack middle and low it makes for a good example of mixing it up with other systems I think.

[DaveB]

I think Bruce Lee made styles unfashionable. He popularised the idea of the formless adapter, but while that approach has strengths I think it has left many to flounder.

Rather than just an aesthetic choice, MA styles offer us a distinct method of fighting. Ways to attack and ways to defend that we can fall back on in any situation.

Most of the martial artists that I've met, myself included, learned lots of techniques and just had to work out how to use them through trial and error. A small portion of the techniques are explained through sport or self defense drills, but an over arching game plan was missing.

[Martial Matt]

Personally, I'm going with the great Muhammad Ali on this one. He commented numerous times "You don't beat a man, you beat his style.". Ali didn't try learning anything different than what he already did, so I don't buy the learn 10 different martial arts to deal with various kinds of fighters. What Ali did was adapt his style of fighting to deal with the opponent. Ali knew he already had the necessary tools, he just needed to use them in accordance with range, power, etc. Chances are your Shotokan has some effective technique for dealing with the kinds of problems the Thai Boxer is giving you. Before rushing out there to learn additional material from somewhere else, my advice is to look hard into your Shotokan toolbox.

[5thdan]

I learned a lot from Bruce Lee, and when I was in Tae Kwon Do, I sparred a lot there, and I went to tournaments.

[CTTKDKing]

This thread has been an interesting read. It's cool to see other practitioners perspectives on this subject. I tend to agree with Sensei8's perspective near the beginning of this thread. I've been studying martial arts for about 12 years now, and had to learn to stop paying attention to styles and more to the skill sets and levels of the person I'm facing.

I'm pretty excited because on Saturday this week I get to test this further because, we are having an open styles sparring event at my school. I've invited people from my former TKD school to join us, and I know other assistant instructors and senior students are doing the same from friends who cross train elsewhere. They are expecting a huge turnout and it's going to be cross style sparring in a round robin style. So no weight classes, medium contact with and interesting array of people for about 2-3 hours. I'm expecting to be exhausted in the best possible way.

[gunner]

I took TKD when I was young. I now take Karate but I have no particular style. I'm also ambidextrous which confuses many people. Lately I've been fighting southpaw more because it gives me more options against right handed fighters.

[Emanon]

It's hard to judge what went down between you and him without seeing it. You may say he is a Muay Thai practitioner and he may also refer to himself as such but without actually seeing him in action we know nothing. He may be good or terrible, experience or not very. You may say and think he is great but others may not. Hard to say. With that said and from my own experience lets assume he is really good. Then he may have been just play fighting with you. Going against the typical Shotokan stylist isn't so easy for the skilled Muay Thai, kick boxer, MMA fighter etc. The reason is that they don't want to hurt the less skilled practitioner. It's sort of like sensei sparring with a white belt. Some techniques he has to let slide by because to deal with it he's have to hurt you. If leg kicks were tough then imagine them if he were fighting you for real!

You mentioned him having a hard time with backfists. Well, as a Shotokan stylist myself for over 30 years I never understood a backfist. I don't point spar so I don't use it. The typical backfist to the face followed by a reverse punch to the midsection...to me...is silly. I have trained in kickboxing and Muay Thai to a degree as well as MMA and when I mess around sparring with Shotokan practitioners they "get me" (in their mind) with backfists all the time. However that is because to me, it is meaningless. If you come from a full contact background then unless the technique is a danger then I let it go. A backfist is like an annoying fly buzzing around. Eventually you get fed up and just swat it!

Many modern karate stylists who point spar always think they are doing a lot while the full contact guy is just trying to figure it all out. All the dancing and bouncing and multiple kicks and punches, fakes and half contact strikes and the full contact guy just moves around confused and trying not to hurt him. But at any give time it could just be "whack!" Done!

Just a thought from an old man who played on both sides of the fence