Sparring against other arts.

[gronis]

Today i sparred against another art for the first time since i started martial arts. I sparred against a thaiboxer. It was pretty difficult. He put on pressure and almost constantly was to close for the longer shotokan techniques. It was hard keeping him at distance. Had to use hooks and uppercuts that i haven't practiced enough it seems. The legkicks were a bit harder to do anything about than i expected. Although i did hit and kick him and managed to throw him once i must admit that i got dominated for the most part. He did have a hard time with backfist though.

I will probably face him again. Any tips?

For discussion im interested to know about your experience in fighting other arts. Any arts you find especially challenging with your skillset?[/i]

[sensei8]

I don't "fight" the style, but I "fight" the individual, whether it be a man or a woman. Styles, to me, are meaningless in the scope of the matter. In open tournaments, one will face a lot of different styles, yet, I've never been defeated by a style, and truth be known, neither has anyone else. Sure, a style or styles are being utilized, but how one defines and uses said style(s) is more to be concerned with. I've not the time or the inclination to be worried about the style, just the individual(s) that stand before me.

[TJ-Jitsu]

Going with what sensei was saying, "style" give you a good indication of what the majority of practitioners will be doing if you fought 100 of them.

Its hard to gauge this guys (or your) skill level without seeing anything, but I'll give some vague and general tips.

In short, thai boxing practices everything and it does so at full power (on the whole, anyways... once again I cant say your sparring partner does or does not do this by the simple merit of training in something called muay thai).

You've got boxing, kicking, and clinching. That's as solid a standup style as you're going to get. Lets start with the cut kicks.

Most karate styles (and kickboxing for that matter) teach you to have a wide and low stance so as to get more power and base. The problem here is that this is the equivalent of a christmas gift against any thai fighter. You cannot lift your leg to check a kick from this posture, and lifting your leg is the only way to properly block a cut kick. That roundhouse is the strongest attack one can throw- it covers a wide area, so its guaranteed to hit something- uses the strongest muscles in your body, and attacks the very base of your opponent (their legs).

This is bar none what has to be beaten first. If you know how to and are able to put into practice the concept of checking a kick- you're halfway home. Then we can talk about combos, hands, and all that other jazz. If you can not, you will never have success against any thai fighter regardless of the skill level of your hands. Former boxing champions have jumped into kickboxing tournaments and have gotten handled in seconds because they didn't know how to check a simple kick.

This doesn't mean you need to learn how to kick (or kick like them, even although I cant see why you wouldn't want to learn...). It merely means you need to narrow your stance so as to be able to check the kicks.

[MAfreak]

the advice is you should learn how to "thai box". this means how to block low kicks (raise a bent knee), improve hooks, uppercuts (look how they do in boxing), elbows, knee strikes and mostly form a good guard (look also how they do in boxing). the "open" guard of shotokan can "kill" you in a close combat. but learning that shouldn't be a big problem when you already have a karate background.

i sparred with practicioners of different styles too when i was still in a shotokan club. but fortunately at that time i already was interested in practising (kick)boxing and grappling too, otherwise i would have been lost. disappointing harsh truth.

[Wastelander]

Sparring people from other styles is fun--it gives you lots of new learning opportunities! As TJ-Jitsu said, we can't really judge how good either of you are, or how you did, since there is no video and we weren't there. From what you describe, though, it sounds like your opponent's range made you uncomfortable, and his leg kicks were problematic. Honestly, the leg kicks aren't such a big deal if you're just sparring a bit, but they definitely add up, so it's important to learn how to check them. The range is a bigger problem, since you sound like you mainly rely on long-distance techniques. You will need to learn how to keep him away with kicks, cut angles around him to get space back, or learn how to fight at close range. All three would be ideal, of course.

[tallgeese]

Again, just spitballing. Everyone here is right. The assumption seems to be that you're standing only. If that's correct, get moving and more mobile with your coverage. Also, learn to defend the leg kick.

If that's not true, take the fight to the ground. Quickly. The amount of damage a MT fighter can dole out in a single round is incredible. It's truly the most dynamic and aggressive standup I've ever been fortunate enough to train in, even if only for a short time.

Dump a single, tie and leg sweep, heck pull guard if all else fails, but get him off his feet. Again, if it's an option.

[Alan Armstrong]

Long time ago while taking Shotokan, some students there were from Thailand. This was my first contact of what Thai-boxers were capable of. The Korean/Chinese/Japanese ma styles about 40 years ago were known to us through the movies. Thai-boxing went buy seemingly unnoticed. My sparring experience as a Shotokan student against Thai-boxing was a great wakeup call for me. Pound for pound they were more stronger/faster/agile than me. They trained harder than I have ever witnessed. My attitude was not as intense as theirs. Sure I wanted to become tougher but they seemed committed to be like human weapons. Their techniques are committed also with full power and speed, while I was taught to show control with punches and kicks. The training ethics of Shotokan and Thai-boxing are distances apart. My nose getting busted a few times from them gave me a new perspective about Thai-boxing and a free facelift. IMHO Learning Muay Thai is time well spent for any type of martial artist.

[bushido_man96]

There is much to learn sparring with other styles. But if you don't have other styles available to work with, just changing your normal sparring rules can provide a similar training experience.

I've not sparred a Thai fighter, but have sparred using leg kicks. It was tough to get used to. Checking the leg kicks is different. Keep at it, though. Training like this pays dividends.

[DaveB]

There are two options when learning by fighting another style:

Either you copy what they do, or

You analyse your own art for solutions to the problems that they present.

By far number 2 is the better option, partly because it encompasses 1 to a degree but also because copying is a poor substitute for going and taking classes in said style.

So how do we analyse Shotokan?

First step is research. Knowing what is for fighting and what is cultural baggage will help. For example, long stances were introduced as a training tool, the logic being that if you're Strong enough to move quickly in long stances you can move even faster in a short stance. So start by making your stances around half their current length. This will make you more mobile, able to shift your weight onto angles and make short skips back to let him punch air while you launch your counter to intercept his forward momentum, just like you do in normal kumite but shorter and faster, dodging by the inch rather than the foot. Also a shorter stance gives you the option to extend your stance to attack, so long as you remember to retract it (front leg or back) once your momentum falters. Deep stances are most useful in standing grappling, either for supporting your own balance

Understanding kata in terms of simple fighting is next. Forget the strings of joint locks ending in a throw that everyone loves for bunkai. Karate is a percussive art and so much of the kata instructs on how to land strikes.

Start with the range: in close quarters an open guard is begging to be hit. In Shotokan kata you do a lot of moving forward in back stance with shuto uke. That is your close fighting guard. Lead hand high, elbows sunk and in front of the body. Rear hand covers the centre. Most important you should be square to your opponent in this position, NOT side on! This way you can employ both hands equally and present no blind side.

When the lead hand parry's the rear shoots into the space with an attack (hiean nidan), otherwise the hands move as if on opposite ends of a stick: one goes up, the other goes down etc. This helps you cover all your openings.

Now you know how to stand learn to relax in the position. Loose the rigid blades and tight knees and 90d angle of the feet. Practice dancing, advancing and retreating and shifting your body weight by pivoting the front foot. Body shifting sideways and to angles is the whole point of hiean kata openings. Angular footwork is the holy grail of shotokan imo and key to a lot of ring fighting because it takes you off the line of force while giving you a line of attack.

Learn to hit using the hand techniques that accompany kokutsudachi. Most involve trapping or simultaneous blocking and knife hand thrusts are the same principle as single knuckle fists: focused pressure. Useful when you don't have space to generate acceleration.

You are used to making space for long techniques, well by having your weight back Kokutsudachi creates space between you and your attacker. The guard is a wall between you that triggers your counter the moment it is touched. The front foot should be light enough for you to pick up the knee to check any kicks. A tenet of southern Chinese martial arts from whence karate originated, is that hands deal with hands and feet deal with feet.

Another way to do this is to check his legs while on the ground using the Hangetsu dachi. That turned in front knee is to apply pressure to your opponents lead leg making it harder for him to kick (must work with hands to trap him) and to make groin shots harder when not so close.

So where do these knee raises come from if we are using karate? Bassai dai and. Tekki are great examples: the knee comes up while the supporting leg contracts so you are.more stable as you receive his force. Then you slam it down, pressing your weight forward with a. Powerful upper body technique. In Tekki it's a trap setting up the elbow, in Hiean sandan it's an elbow strike-back fist combination, in Bassai it's a simultaneous trap and over hand swing in the mountain punch followed by a mighty uppercut/under-hook and shoulder throw.

This leads neatly into attacking. Defending leg kicks won't be a problem if you are the one dominating.

Again, shorten your techniques. The power zone of a punch is up to 3/4 extension, so stop fully extending when you punch. If your punch is only having to go half way before the other hand launches think how many more punches you will put out. The more you throw the more the chance of one landing (jion, hiean shodan). Shotokan kumite is based on kendo, but you are not using swords and one good hit may not be enough.

Whatever movement you make, cover them with a volley of strikes. The cross step in tekki is an indicator for inserting a kick. And that kata only moves by cross step! It also only uses circular strikes. Hands follow feet and in tekki they often follow by pulling the guard down to enable the strike. If you try this pull the elbow not the wrist, but only trap if you can't get through and with the opponent on the back foot. Otherwise it is just a space in which your not hitting him and where he can (and will) hit you.

Hooks go around a guard. If his hand is covering where your hook will go give it somewhere else to be by striking so he has to move it.

Forget your long horizontal backfist and embrace the vertical dropping backfist with the elbow sunk. Then reinterpret every ude uke in your kata as one (and every other block as a strike) and see what it does for your combos.

Lastly on attack, one of the fundamentals of Okinawan karate is turning attack into defence and vice versa with the same hand. You see this clearly in Bassai dai after the tate shuto uke. Punch twists into block. Make use of that, especially the other way around. When you block/parry, the blocking hand is often closer to the opponent. If you can time it so he is just starting his next attack you can quickly launch a fast light eye level attack from the hand that just blocked you can force him on the defensive to retake the initiative.

There's pages and pages more I could add about timing etc, but the bottom line is this: most karateka don't know how to fight, because they get stuck in techniques or the fighting they do is for the specialised kendo hand tag of kumite tournaments.

Fighting is the study of landing techniques. It is not the muay thai style you are having trouble with, it is the study of landing techniques that is made by combat sports people of all stripes. I'll bet everything you were taught in shotokan regarding distance timing and interception came in the context of tournament style fighting.

Understanding how to fight as a karateka can only come from studying kata for clues in how to land techniques, not in inventing more of them.

Actually being able to fight can only come from taking those lessons and trying your damdest to make them work in sparring against a variety of people, and constantly revising and retesting the methods as your attributes and skill levels develop. Most of all it needs an ego check to allow ourselves to grow by getting beat up a lot but persevering anyway.

Well done for starting down the path!

[Hawkmoon]

The profound answer would be "fight the person not the style"..

Seriously forget that he is a Thai fighter at all just fight him!

What you described is not uncommon to any other schools of MA around, you get high pressure fighters (always on you) you get fighters that come at you from range (like a fencer (sword fighter)) and so on...

He needs to be looked at like a high pressure fighter...so move around him let him press in and pass you as you side step and fight him!

No matter how hard you work at keeping at range or off to this or that side he will get in close from time to time so you will have to deal with predicament when he does!

He is after all fighting you as well!

He has already looked at you and said to himself 'this karate guy will want to fight at range so I need to get in close!'

Have a surprise waiting for him when he does!