Who has been challenged?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Overall this sound like an urban legend or a thing of an age long gone, but are challenges really a thing of the good or bad old days?

Does anyone know of reliable accounts of martial arts instructors or practicioners who were challenged to prove their skills in one way or another? Any of these in recent memory?

A challenge can take many forms from the amical display or sparring match to the almost duel-like and serious "fight" or "dojo storming"which would, nowadays, probably have serious repercussions.

[Montana]

I had 2 guys come to my dojo, which was in the basement of my HOME, to "watch" my class back in the 1980's. About halfway thru the class one of them asks if he can fight me.

I told him if he wanted to signup/join the class, then yes, we would be sparring often. He stated he wanted to fight NOW, not later, and had no interest in joining my class.

I politely told him no, I didn't spar with people off the street just because they wanted me to. He said..."Chicken?" I replied no, that I didn't spar for fun and the entertainment of others, but with my students and other martial artists when the situation warrented it.

He became more verbally aggressive so I went over to the door, closed it and locked it. I told one of my students to standby the phone on the wall and be ready to call an ambulance.

The other guy said "An ambulance? Why?" I advised him that he walked into my dojo/home and is physically threatening me in front of witnesses, and he either needed to leave immediately, or yes, we would be fighting NO RULES, and one of us was going to need an ambulance.

He started sputtering and backpeddling verbally about how he just wanted to spar with me and see if he could beat me.

I told him leave now, or start fighting, and I assumed a fighting stance.

He and his friend went out the door and haven't seen them since.,

[Montana]

My origional sensei trained on Okinawa in the 1970's, he told me that challenges did happen now and then, but rarely.

[Wado Heretic]

I have been challenged, yes, but there were personal elements beyond simple inter-style fighting curiosity and I shall leave it at that.

It is very much a myth in most cases with regards to the more exaggerated claims, but I have as I stated had it happen to me, and have associates who have faced the same.

Legal problems, and also reticence to sparring strangers I think has killed it in this day and age. The Gracie Challenges I suspect were the last hurrah of dojo yaburi in the modern age; especially with the explosion of grappling tournaments, Tough-man competitions, Kudo/SOMBO/Combudo/NAS and other types of inter-style or free-fighting tournament scenes coming into vogue, and of course the broader acceptance of MMA and the resulting amateur scene.

People who just want to fight, or have an interest in testing their skills against other disciplines or in a full-contact situation have a lot more options these days, and especially one's far easier to arrange and more socially acceptable than dojo storming. Any one discussing being dojo challenged after say the 70s is perhaps trying to build credibility, anyone who claims to have been on the wrong side of a dojo challenge and won but has no competition history or a police record, I would take with a pinch of salt.

[tallgeese]

This happened literally last year to me. Dude walks in from a nearby bar. Tries to cause a scene, we try to get him a cab. He steps on the mat. Hands go on, and I ended up in it with him. Choked him and told him to get out once he was coherent again.

I know, you can't make this stuff up. By and large the dojo storm as gone away in this day and age, but stupid will always be around.

[JR 137]

Indeed stupid will always be around.

I've never witnessed it. My Sensei says no ones ever come into his dojo. He says he has witnessed it on several occasions at his teacher's dojo (Tadashi Nakamura's in NYC). This was in the 60s through the mid-late 80s. Nakamura wrote about a few "challenges" over the years in his autobiography. According to a few sources (not my teacher), Nakamura was given the nickname "Knock 'em out Nakamura" because of all the challengers getting knocked out. A friend witnessed a time when he almost put a challenger through a window.

Perhaps the bigger the name, the more people want to be able to say they beat him and prove their superiority (in their mind). Add to that the population of NYC and the popularity of martial arts in general and karate in that era and area, and it's not as much of a stretch as it may seem.

I guess at one time people thought the better fighter was proven to be the better teacher. We've smartened up as a society. If a 25 year old guy went to Phil Jackson's hypothetical basketball school and beat him in a challenge game of 1 on 1, no one in their right mind would think the 25 year old is a better coach/basketball teacher. Add lawsuits and MMA accessibility, and challenges have pretty much become a thing of the past.

But as tallgeese says, stupid will always be around.

[sensei8]

I'm from the bye gone days, and while these type of things weren't as often as one might think or imagine, they did, from time to time, happen. For the most, these type of things were quick, and to the point. More often than not, the challenger was scoffed at with an impudent tenor.

Having been born in 1957, the MA was just being born itself in the USA. This ingredient only created itself either a wonderment or a troublesome amount those that are true to the MA or true to proving themselves.

The far gone conclusions that this only occurs in 'B' rated movies, is not only a costly assumption, but it's also without sound merit. It did happen! Some were more romantic than others, however, some were a cold served dish.

My Soke, had a few challenges, as did our Dai-Soke, but very rarely did they experience them back in Okinawa, but as the hype of the MA began building up momentum, he'd be on the unforgiving end of many unwelcomed challenges. The venue...The Shindokan Hombu...and that...to those two...was sacred holy ground. To trod upon with such disregard and such disrespect was dealt with such unholy recourse. Instead, both Soke and Dai-Soke handled them, for the most part, with dignity and understanding. That being said...they'd ask once, and only once, for the challenger to kindly remove themselves from the Hombu, but before that ultimatum was offered, the challenger would be invited to become students, and nothing more. And if the challenger refused...to leave, and continued to violate the sanctity of the Hombu, well, it wasn't good for the challenger.

In the days of my youth, I've had my share of challenges, but I too, scoffed at them as a compliment, and not as a threat. I must be a threat to said challenger, otherwise, why would they challenge me in the first place? To this very day, I've never truly understood why I was ever challenged. I'm complete in my MA totality, and therefore, challenges are beneath me, and not worthy of my time.

But, for the topic at hand, most of my challenges came not from non-MAists, but from MAists, and even more so, from a dojo's CI, either on someone else behalf, or for themselves.

Once, in 1987, a CI from a dojo that was just 7 miles away, came into my dojo, and he was accompanied by, I assume, 2 of his students, one evening while class was in session. I too, being a student of my Dai-Soke, consider my floor to be holy ground, and no one is to step onto it without my explicit permission. This CI, walks directly onto my floor, and me having it about myself to have an alarming sense of awareness, spin around and intercept him immediately.

He spews some non-since about "Who gave you permission to open your dojo?" and "Did you ask my Sensei if you could open your dojo?" and "My Sensei's dojo is 25 miles away from you, and protocol insists that you visit my Sensei's dojo to introduce yourself as well as your intent...did you?" and "My Sensei was in this region before you; this region belongs to him...did you not know this?"

My comment..."Really!?!" and "Since when do I owe anyone, let alone your Sensei, any explanation, and worse, permission to do anything?" and "Where do you think you're from....1600 Japan?" and "Last time I checked, I live in the USA. And since I live in the USA, I'm free to open my dojo anywhere I want to without anyone's permission" and "If you push the issue, I'll move my dojo right next door to your Sensei's dojo...and...put him out of business" and "Unless, you're here to become my student, then, I strongly suggest that you and your friends leave my dojo immediately. And if you don't, I'll call the police!! But before the police arrive and remove you all, I've no problem giving you guys a free karate lesson...anytime...anywhere...bring a lunch"

They all left immediately once they saw that I wasn't backing down, and held my ground. I'd like to say that I never heard from that CI again, but, I unfortunately did encounter him many times...he was quite persistent, that CI. It got so bad, that I went to his dojo to end it, once and for all. But, when I started walking up the steps to his dojo, he meet me at the top of the stairs, and if had it not been for one of my students, I would've gave that free lesson happenstance. No, I'm not proud of myself of my intent, but enough is enough and I can only take so much. The true joy I received is whenever I signed up any of his ex-students to join my dojo.

After the incident at the top of the stairs, I went directly to his Sensei. Introduced myself. We two had a very peaceful conversation; he was quite affable, and I believed his sincerity. His student, that CI, was there. His Sensei called him into his office, and stops abruptly when he notices me...swallows deeply...takes a very deep breath...and his Sensei chews the CI up...and spits him out. This CI and I shake hands, and I could feel the insincerity of his grasp on my own hand.

No, we remain estranged to this day, and I'd love to still give him a free karate lesson because he was literally the bane of my existence, then...now...and forever. Things that he did to me, my students, my family, to my dojo, to everything that means everything to me, and then some, are forgivable, but, if I'm to be honest, it's quite hard, even though I'm trying, and yet, I'm failing.

Here we here now, some almost 20 years later, and while the fever of the moment within the MA community has lowered somewhat, these challenges do still happen, from time to time. I believe that they'll continue to happen as long as human beings walk the face of the earth. Remember this, just because someone's a human being, it doesn't mean that they know how to act like a human being!!

MAist's want to excel in everything that they do, and in that, they want to prove their worthiness in any manner that they feel will help them earn that. Whether it's the MA or sports or their job or what have you, it's in our nature to be the best, and at times, this jealousy rears its ugly head, and we forget about the humanistic part of us, and act animalistic without thought or concern regarding any consequence that might befall us out of our thoughtless actions. And for what? Pride!! Pride does come from the fall!!

Sorry for the long rant, wasn't my intent to do so. Sorry, I'll go tape my mouth shut!!

[IcemanSK]

The closest I had to an experience like this was an inter-school issue. In my gup days in the early 80's, my master invited another Korean master to join us at our dojang. I'm not sure why the younger master was invited. Master #2 spent a few weeks at our dojang training with us.

We had a 3rd Dan who was a ranked fighter, & a hot head. One night, both were sparring before our master had come to the dojang. The rest of us were stretching awaiting our master. One accidental low blow not apologized for turned into another cheap shot. One of the 2 men suggested they "take in outside." (No, I'm not kidding!) We had several BBs who didn't normally come to class there that night. They were able to separate these men. As they did, our master walked through the door.

He called master #2 into his office & chewed him out loudly in Korean. Master #2 left, & never returned. He then called in the 3rd Dan & spoke to him in a controlled tone & told him that he was no longer welcome. The 3rd Dan left in tears. He came back several times & begged to be allowed back. The 3rd time he tried, our master would not even speak to him.

If the tenets of our Arts don't lead us to keep our emotions in check, we need to re-evaluate our training.

[Lupin1]

Never anything like that at my school (we don't advertise and most people don't even know we even have an adult program).

My instructor likes to tell the story of when he was a yellow belt in the early 70s.

They were training one night when two guys came in and sat in the visitors' seats at the side of the room. The guys were snickering and making comments and trying to provoke a fight for a good 45 minutes. The students in the class were doing their best to completely ignore them.

My instructor was working on a demonstration with a young female green belt where he pretended to be an unwanted admirer and put his arm around her shoulder, to which she responded by nailing him in the ribs, taking him to his hands and knees and then sweeping his hand out from under him so he ended up face down on the floor.

At one point they felt confident enough to go full speed/strength. That's when she missed sweeping his hand and instead kicked him in the nose while he was on his hands and knees.

He was facedown on the floor holding his bleeding nose when two black belts rushed up to him and one whispered in his ear "Victor, don't do anything".

They grabbed him by the ankles and dragged him the entire length of the dojo floor into the locker room, leaving a trail of blood behind him. Once in the locker room, they helped him to his feet and told him to wait in there.

One of them went back out, walked up to the guys and said "Gentlemen, you're in luck! It seems a spot just opened up for a new student! Would one of you wish to join?"

The two turned pale and quickly left the dojo.

[sensei8]

The closest I had to an experience like this was an inter-school issue. In my gup days in the early 80's, my master invited another Korean master to join us at our dojang. I'm not sure why the younger master was invited. Master #2 spent a few weeks at our dojang training with us.

We had a 3rd Dan who was a ranked fighter, & a hot head. One night, both were sparring before our master had come to the dojang. The rest of us were stretching awaiting our master. One accidental low blow not apologized for turned into another cheap shot. One of the 2 men suggested they "take in outside." (No, I'm not kidding!) We had several BBs who didn't normally come to class there that night. They were able to separate these men. As they did, our master walked through the door.

He called master #2 into his office & chewed him out loudly in Korean. Master #2 left, & never returned. He then called in the 3rd Dan & spoke to him in a controlled tone & told him that he was no longer welcome. The 3rd Dan left in tears. He came back several times & begged to be allowed back. The 3rd time he tried, our master would not even speak to him.

If the tenets of our Arts don't lead us to keep our emotions in check, we need to re-evaluate our training.

Solid post!!

To the bold type above...

If I've lost respect here at KF for how I feel about that CI mentioned in my first post in this topic, I completely understand, and ask for forgiveness.