Is it possible to know or not?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Passed a certain point in one's training is it really possible to accurately evaluate one's skills and progress or is there invariably a tendency to overestimate or underestimate oneself?

[JR 137]

A scientific study I read said that people always over or underestimate their skills. Can't remember where I saw it, but I agree with it. We overestimate some things and short change other things.

We're our own worst critics, and we also have a rosey view of ourselves. I guess it depends on what we're evaluating.

Many experts evaluated the subjects and scored them. The reported self scores didn't match up, some areas being higher, some being lower, and not within a few points either.

[Spartacus Maximus]

So scientific opinion seems to confirm that being evaluated by another person is always more accurate than any self-evaluation. This must also depend on the evaluator's impartiality, honesty and skills.

[Hawkmoon]

.... is there invariably a tendency to overestimate or underestimate oneself?

As spoken by Lawrence Fishburn in 'Predators': "the difference between Dogs and wolves", eg: like the difference between confidence and arrogance...

In an ideal world a calm mind an even tempered person etc can do so with no effort and be correct, but we don't live in an ideal world...

Our peers are the best gauge for us and our efforts, the skill is in finding an external view that is not as equally biased as your own. A view that compliments your own but is different enough to create honest debate not open conflict!

A person on there own no not possible, a sample of one is not a sample at all, its a count.

A person and a second party, going to be more 'who shouts loudest' situation, not going to that helpful either!

Get more than 2 peoples input 3-8-22.... yes going to get a pretty fare and accurate representation of what you and your ability!

Edited April 7, 2016 by Hawkmoon

[sensei8]

Being honest with oneself is difficult, with no exceptions, imho!

While I've been "judged" by both my Sensei and his Sensei, as either meeting or exceeding their expectations daily, as quarterly and annually, through their testing cycles. I must say, I am my worse critic, without any doubt.

Either of these great men would share their thoughts as to my shortcomings as well as my triumphs with an honest display of truths, in which, some were kind and some not so kind, but directly honest!

Seeing that we're imperfect from birth, and all the way to death, I will, at times, depending on my mood, tear myself down over the smallest details. And if for no other reason(s), I never wanted to let them down or my students or my fellow MAists or, for that fact, anyone.

And because I'm imperfect, I'm prone to make my share of mistakes. Btw, if anyone thinks, even if for just one second, that high ranking MAists don't make mistakes, let me be the first one to simply say...oh yeah, I've made my share of mistakes, more often than I care to speak about or towards, and yes, I'll make more than a few in the future. A mistake is a mistake, no matter how infinitesimal or how large and noticeable, and while no one else might not point the mistake out, I knew, and that, for me, was/is enough.

I pride myself in being extremely strict with myself when it comes to the details, nonetheless, I seek that which can't be retained...ever...by anyone...perfection, or at least, the near perfection, as one can be. I drive myself endlessly, and it causes me at times to think...

...just who am I to question the findings of my Sensei and his Sensei?!? Isn't it an act of disloyalty?!? Is it a slap in their faces, no matter the venue being regular class or a testing cycle or wherever else?!? Am I better than them in their evaluations?!?

No!

But because I am my worse critic, I must do my utmost best to erasing my unshakeable doubts about myself, both as an individual as well as a MAist...especially as a MAist!!

So, trodden I will go in order to increase my MA betterment; while I'm complete in my MA totality, I still doubt myself from time to time. Which is better because I use to doubt myself all of the time. I don't doubt myself as much as I use to because...well...I still make mistakes.

Yesterday...today...tomorrow...I've doubted myself before...I've doubted myself today....I'll doubt myself tomorrow!! Why? I'm imperfect; I just can't help myself.

[bushido_man96]

Passed a certain point in one's training is it really possible to accurately evaluate one's skills and progress or is there invariably a tendency to overestimate or underestimate oneself?

I think most people do one or the other. We see lots who we tend to think overestimate themselves (hence the 10th dans running around), and they stick out the most to us, usually in a negative light. On the other end of the spectrum, we see those who underestimate themselves, and refuse to acknowledge advancement of any kind (I only see myself as a 3rd dan, and refuse to test or be promoted higher). We are usually quick to admire this as humility.

Both are a problem, in my opinion, and for that reason I think its important to be constantly testing oneself and training with others of similar rank, and perhaps those of different skills entirely.

[doublejabbing]

A scientific study I read said that people always over or underestimate their skills. Can't remember where I saw it, but I agree with it. We overestimate some things and short change other things.

We're our own worst critics, and we also have a rosey view of ourselves. I guess it depends on what we're evaluating.

Many experts evaluated the subjects and scored them. The reported self scores didn't match up, some areas being higher, some being lower, and not within a few points either.

Very well said.

[Hawkmoon]

A scientific study I read said that people always over or underestimate their skills. Can't remember where I saw it, but I agree with it. We overestimate some things and short change other things.

We're our own worst critics, and we also have a rosey view of ourselves. I guess it depends on what we're evaluating.

Many experts evaluated the subjects and scored them. The reported self scores didn't match up, some areas being higher, some being lower, and not within a few points either.

Very well said.

Spot on, good post!

[JR 137]

I'd like to find a link to that study, but I can't. It was posted on another forum, and it was a study published in a psychology journal.

I think we definitely underestimate and overestimate our skills at pretty much everything.

In MA, some things feel right and flow. We get comfortable, it works, and we keep doing it. We think we're doing it close to perfectly, say 9 out of 10, but people around us see the flaws. Since we're moving and can't see it accurately in a mirror while it's going on, or we're focused on other details, what we overlook, everyone else sees in real time as it's going on. Kind of like when an instructor says "you're dropping your hands when you do X" and we genuinely don't think we are. Then comes the video proof, and the student sees it front someone else's point of view.

Then there's situations where we don't feel comfortable with something, no matter how much we practice it. We feel the lack of stability, tightness, perhaps pain while executing it. The onlooker doesn't see nor feel that. They see the technique being performed as it should be.

I came back to this thread because of what happened in class the other night. I'm working on Pinan 4 and Gekisai Dai for a tournament. I'm still undecided on which one I'll do. I feel Pinan 4 flows better for me, and Gekisai Dai is choppy. Everyone in the room (3 of them have judged tournaments) said they flowed equally well. But to me, Gekisai Dai's start-stop-start-stop doesn't feel as smooth to me. Everyone's opinion was that my timing and pace in both were exactly where they should be. I thought my front kick/elbow/backfist/low block/low punch part of it was my strongest point; most thought that part needs the most work.

I could keep going, but I think that's enough.

For most people it's not an arrogant nor insecure thing; it's that we can't step outside ourselves and see what others can see. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. We can sense a lack of balance that can't be picked up by others, but it's not as far off as we think. We can feel that solid contact during a strike that onlookers can't (other than the opponent), but they can see how to make it more effective.

Trust your instincts, but also trust your teachers/peers. You're both right and wrong at the same time.

[DWx]

A scientific study I read said that people always over or underestimate their skills. Can't remember where I saw it, but I agree with it. We overestimate some things and short change other things.

We're our own worst critics, and we also have a rosey view of ourselves. I guess it depends on what we're evaluating.

Many experts evaluated the subjects and scored them. The reported self scores didn't match up, some areas being higher, some being lower, and not within a few points either.

Do you mean the Dunning-Kruger effect?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Most people will over- or under- estimate their abilities. Funnily enough it is usually those that are skilled and have knowledge who underestimate themselves and those that are poorly skilled who overestimate.

Most high acheivers in life have a tendency to Imposter Syndrome and always underestimate their abilities. Usually this means they end up working even harder and learning even more than those that overestimate themselves.

This seems pretty appropriate:

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

― William Shakespeare, As You Like It