Free Flowing Martial Arts vs The Kata Forms

[Alan Armstrong]

There must come to point where practicing kata forms should be exchanged for free flowing spontaneity. Just like a dancer feels the music a martial artist feels the inner glow. Can you move freely as martial artist? Is creativity and spontaneity important to martial art movements? Or is techniques and applications done in a systematic order the way martial arts should be. Then how were different styles developed if not for the inspired free flowing thinking and moving martial artist. Street fighter's are free flowing using mostly their past experience for reference. Would be interesting to see a street fighter kata?

[username19853]

This is an interesting post. In Karate, some applications of the Kata have been lost. But were there ever any set rules? Did a creator of a certain Kata add a certain move, with the intentions of only having one final practical application? I doubt it.

I've always been shown more than one way to apply certain moves in a Kata for real self defense. The fact is, there are endless interpretations of each move, and endless individuals with different body types. One application is going to work better for one individual than another. So I think Kata were made as guidelines, with the intention of creativity. Find the application that best fits you.

So yes, I would say creativity and spontaneity are important for martial artists.

As for the street fighter kata, I'm not really sure what to make of it. I think they rely on instinct. They don't have a set of guidelines, or kata, like we do in Karate and Kung Fu. Punch, punch, punch. If anything, I would assume a street fighter kata would just be shadow boxing, imagining you're in a fight and reacting to your imaginary opponents movements and trying to land some hits. Ending the "fight" when you're too tired to continue, since that's how street fights will end, if someone doesn't get knocked out. With that being said, they also don't have finishing moves as we do. Our moves are designed to end the fight quickly so you can get away.

I hope I contributed!

EDIT:

You asked about creativity and different styles. Some styles have lower stances, some have higher stances. Some have wider, some have more narrow. For the Karateka that invented their own style as well as the Kung Fu masters, they had disagreements with what they were originally taught or saw, so they used their creativity to adapt their style to what fits then better as an individual. This transfers thousands of years later to our present day. Some individuals would prefer Shotokan with their deeper stances for more stability. Some may prefer Shorin Ryu for their higher stances for its natural feel. Individuality!

[Alan Armstrong]

Katas are made to practice and pass it on? We know katas are good for practicing good form but good form doesn't win fights. Mixed MA don't look pretty but can be highly effective in a cofrontatation. Forms don't allow for differences in : terrain, weather conditions, cramped spaces, fighting in water, martial artists from other styles. No fight situation is ever the same so why train in such a way as if they are? Free flowing not flowery MA movements should be encouraged, which could add an important aspect to the MA unpredictable aspects which win fights. Forms I believe are best learned up to a point and should be exchanged for free flowing movements eventually. If not the form will confine the individual spirit of the Martial Artist. I don't see much free flowing going on in the martial arts world, art is about creativity not conformity. Such as thinking on your feet! Not much bobbing or weaving in forms or don't they count?

[Alan Armstrong]

While walking through the park where I do my training, a man was looking a bit out of place doing some odd looking shadow boxing without the boxing. Unlike practicing set moves, it was as if he was being bothered or being attacked by an invisible man. I watched for a while and sat close by until he finished. It looked like a type of free style Tai Chi without the style or Tai Chi; but I knew that was not it. Some onlookers could think that he has behaving a bit crazy! If I started to pretend to catch flies in the air, we both would eventually be carried off to a nearby rubber room. When the man had enough of what he was doing, I asked him if he was doing Tai Chi. He said no "Yi Chuan"

[JR 137]

Kata and kihon (basics) are the theory, kumite is the practice (or application, if you will). As an example or two...

My brother in-law is a NYS Trooper. In the academy, he learned how to hold and care for his gun(kihon). He went to a range and learned to fire it (kata), then he learned how to fire it in scenarios/drills (kumite). If he gets into a shootout (hopefully not), this'll be his "street fight."

A student studying physics learns theories/laws and formulas (kihon). He/she then learns how to solve problems on paper (kata), then he/she goes into the lab and sees the whole process first hand (kumite). If he/she works for, say the police investigating car crashes, the "street fight" is looking at the entire scene and figuring out what actually happened.

In both of those "street fights," the person uses what they learned and applies it to the real world. It'll never go exactly as stated in textbooks, as there's too many variables to consider, but they're equipped with the best choices to choose from.

Kata gives you the opportunity to see/know the choices and make them work for you. What you do with them is up to you.

[bushido_man96]

You mentioned the idea of seeing a "street fighter kata." I always wonder, why does there even have to be a kata or a form. All training doesn't have to come from it, or be codified into it.

[Alan Armstrong]

The ruffians in my neighborhood growing up were boxers and soccer players

The boxers knew how to knock people out and the soccer players could do head-butts that would leave an egg shaped welt on a person's forehead. Neither types did katas. People today move differently than in the past. They didn't have boxing or soccer. MA katas were designed for a different time, place and era. For katas to survive the test of time is questionable. I've witnessed karate tournaments being won by black belts using only one technique 'the reverse punch'. With all the techniques and experience that they have learned with katas and forget about all of that; the repetitive use of using only the simple reverse punch wins 1st place.

[sensei8]

Katas are made to practice and pass it on? We know katas are good for practicing good form but good form doesn't win fights. Mixed MA don't look pretty but can be highly effective in a cofrontatation. Forms don't allow for differences in : terrain, weather conditions, cramped spaces, fighting in water, martial artists from other styles. No fight situation is ever the same so why train in such a way as if they are? Free flowing not flowery MA movements should be encouraged, which could add an important aspect to the MA unpredictable aspects which win fights. Forms I believe are best learned up to a point and should be exchanged for free flowing movements eventually. If not the form will confine the individual spirit of the Martial Artist. I don't see much free flowing going on in the martial arts world, art is about creativity not conformity. Such as thinking on your feet! Not much bobbing or weaving in forms or don't they count?

To the bold type above...

On the contrary, imho. Bad form will not aide any outcome, whereas, good form will. Any MA knows that good form is important...posture...stance...these must be spot on. Techniques must be spot on, and not sloppy...good form in technique aides execution, and aides in transitions as well as in proper hip usage.

Good form outweighs bad form. Kata helps one train in having good form!!

As far as Kata being the same thing, and why do the same thing over and over...perfection, even though it's not attainable, and the creation of positive muscle memory, which is attainable, and important.

Act without acting..."I do not hit, it hits all by itself!!"

[Alan Armstrong]

Good form doesn't win fights. Good fighters win fights. Many good fighters don't do katas to have good form. Many ma styles don't have katas, so are you saying that they don't have good form? If you need katas go for it but remember not all ma styles require them. Show me a headlock in a kata; it is going to look just a little bit boring for the onlookers, holding that position for a minute while your face turns red from all the tension and strain.

None kata styles have other priorities such as: strategy and timing and perseverance and strength and endurance and techniques and actual-practice-with-a-real-life-sparring-partner and skill and experience and should I rant more..body mechanics and while katas are a recipe of a style and not realistic for all martial artists! Katas can seem robotic and miss out on being "In The Now" concept, favored by Bruce Lee.

For sensei8 If you are going to quote Bruce Lee please say so.

As you may also know or not know, that Bruce Lee was not in favor of katas.

[sensei8]

Good form doesn't win fights. Good fighters win fights. Many good fighters don't do katas to have good form. Many ma styles don't have katas, so are you saying that they don't have good form? If you need katas go for it but remember not all ma styles require them. Show me a headlock in a kata; it is going to look just a little bit boring for the onlookers, holding that position for a minute while your face turns red from all the tension and strain.

None kata styles have other priorities such as: strategy and timing and perseverance and strength and endurance and techniques and actual-practice-with-a-real-life-sparring-partner and skill and experience and should I rant more..body mechanics and while katas are a recipe of a style and not realistic for all martial artists! Katas can seem robotic and miss out on being "In The Now" concept, favored by Bruce Lee.

For sensei8 If you are going to quote Bruce Lee please say so.

As you may also know or not know, that Bruce Lee was not in favor of katas.

Forget Kata/Forms; who cares about that?!?

Bad form doesn't win either, if at all!! Sloppy can win, weirder things have happened before, but I'd rather not be sloppy because good form will win over sloppy. But, that depends on the practitioner. Would one rather have good forms or bad forms when one is executing said technique(s)?!?

Didn't think that I need to always put "Bruce Lee" next to his quotes, especially, the quotes of his that are so well known, and in all of the time that I've been here at KF, I don't always put the author of said quotes, if I feel that the said quote is well known...besides, it's not a KF requirement to do so.

And yes, I know that Bruce wasn't in favor of Kata's, "swimming on dry land", and that's his opinion about Kata's, and in that, I don't agree with his summation...I understand his summation, but I just don't agree with it.