Fundies attacking martial arts, help.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Solid post indeed. It is very telling that the one presented is a very one-sided story as there is nobody else with similar experiences. No fellow (ex)-martial arts, no instructors etc, absolutely no one. It looks as though the entire film is a compilation of footage stuck together by the author for his so-called documentary all of which is probably done without anyone's permission or knowledge. Any instructor finding footage of themselves and their school in this manner would probably be rightfully upset.

[JR 137]

Honestly, I think I kept watching it because I was waiting for a part that made it all come together and state his true case. It was as if he was going to drop a bomb, like a group of them were all forced to live in the woods, sacrifice animals or worse, paint themselves with the blood, and worship some diety.

That part never came. If it did, or anything remotely close to it did, my feelings would have been very different.

He was a guy who trained in body hardening methods, he obsessed about getting to the next level, and his teachers had stupid rituals.

Stupid and cult aren't the same thing.

Another issue I have with it is him saying he's serving a master. Master is a title, meaning the person has mastered the art (relative to others). It doesn't mean that person is YOUR master, as in subservience to him, unconditional devotion, etc.

Last issue, for now anyway, is him saying the Sensei commanded everyone when to start, stop, what to do, etc. during class. Well, yeah. They were talking lessons. It's not a power trip thing, it's called instruction. Same as if someone was teaching a musical instrument, coaching a sport, or anything else.

[JR 137]

Ok, last point and then I'm really done...

He says MAists (including him) are invoking the power of the sun god. Where exactly in the bible is there any mention of a sun god? My copy doesn't have one. God is God, Satan is Satan. Where's this new (to me) diety that has supernatural powers that can be conjured up when called upon, intentionally or unintentionally? If he's a true follower of the bible, doesn't him giving power to a supernatural being that doesn't get any mention in the bible kind of contradict, well, everything?

Perhaps my copy of the bible is edited. Perhaps my church edited the sun god out of everything too.

All that scripture quoting of his, and not a single scripture mentioned the sun god that could also give humans super powers? Maybe I missed something. I'm admittedly not as well read on this matter.

Then again, I might be one of them too. You know... There's no mafia according to the mafia, the holocaust was a lie according to Nazi sympathizers, and on and on. I think it was in the movie The Devil's Advocate where they said "the greatest trick the devil pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist."

Now back to more important matters... What time does the dojo open tomorrow? Is my teacher back from his vacation? Or will a senior student run class?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Correct again. Everything he describes is just plain ordinary instruction by a somewhat eccentric instructor. All of this is then interpreted as "evidence" to support the author's own distorted views. Anybody who has been involved in martial arts training or teaching for long enough has some experiences with more or less eccentric types.

However there is a wide gap between being eccentric and cultish. It is very easy to to see how people like the author of the film might liberally assign their own meaning to certain cultural aspect of martial arts taken out of their context. Usually this s done to further their own agenda, promote their view or out of sheer ignorance.

Things like: bowing to instructors= a servant type relationship

Having portraits on the wall= worshiping those depicted

Grading ceremonies= rituals

Use of unfamiliar foreign language terms= incantations, prayer

[Hawkmoon]

Without not getting into a Christian or religious discussion, I've not seen the movie in question,.....

I'm not a religious person, as I've said in the past I respect people of faith/other Ryus and only ask that they show me the same!

Maybe a history lesson into the Templar Knights would shed some light on the religious warrior and maybe allow them to consider a broader more balanced view, then move to Shaolin kung Fu and teh monks that practice it!

I remember watching a film one time called "The Cross and the Switchblade", it started a chap called 'Erik Estrada' (aka: Officer Frank Poncherello) well I was a fan of CHiPs and Starsky and Hutch back then!

That was a Christian movie, not that I realized it at the start, for me it was another 'gang' movie, I'd watched 'Warriors' and thought gang films were exciting!

Well meaning as the idea or project starts the stronger minded will take over if they are not kept in check, and when you are peaceful in mind and intent thats not an easy thing to deal with!

[Spartacus Maximus]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with integrating one's personal view with one's personal practise of martial arts. Nor is it condemnable to be open about doing this. What is unethical and reprehensible is using the martial arts(or anything else) as a tool to promote dogmatic thinking based on negative personal experiences. This is willfully using a false image for profit and/or self-promotion.

[sensei8]

OK...even though I stated that I've no interest in ever watching this movie, well, I just finished watching it...I've lost an hour and a half of my life that I'll never get back...ever!!

As I've also mentioned before, Mr. Wilson is of his belief, therefore, his opinions, even though, I do not share them with him at all. Not because he's wrong and I'm right or because he's right and I'm wrong, but because, I've travelled on my MA journey these near 52 years, and I've not experienced similar things, nor even close to what Mr. Wilson has; different MA journey's, this is to be for sure.

I've absolute no problem with separating the physical from the spiritual things of the MA!! The spiritual things of the MA are for others, but in truth, and because I was raised in the church, they're not for me, and they've not ever been that way. I believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit...above all things. I believe in the physicality of the MA because you can't learn the MA without being physical.

Sure, I do the meditation before and after class, but it has no significance other than to relax before and after class. I don't chant...I don't have a fancy stick...I don't even light candles...well...except for birthday candles...I don't have an alter or a little house or a little statue or any pictures of ANY MA Master...no way...no how...not today...not tomorrow.

As Mr. Wilson reminds the viewer..."You can't serve two masters. If you do, you'll end up hating one, while loving the other", and this is so true. I serve Christ...he's my Master...and the things of the MA...the spiritual things of the MA have no bearing or control over me. The MA is a thing that I do. Christ isn't a thing; I've a personal relationship with Him.

I believe in things of the MA!! However, I don't believe in the spiritual things of the MA. I do believe in the physical things of the MA. I believe in Mizu No Kokoro and Tsuki No Kokoro, as well as Bushido...as well as Shugyo...to mention just a few, but I draw the line, and this line isn't a faded or fading line, no, but it's a sharp and crisp and defined line, when it comes to the spiritual things of the MA. Perhaps that's why it's so easy for me to separate the physical from the spiritual.

I serve Christ, and Him alone, and nothing that's MA spiritual! Does my meditation that I do before and after class counter what I've just stated? NO! Why? While I'm "meditating", I might be thinking about the class I'm about to teach...going thru a mental check list, and sometimes, I'm praying a quick and simple prayer.

Soke and Dai-Soke had their beliefs, and yet, their beliefs were not mine, nor did they ever force their beliefs on any of their students. They were both very private men, and they exercised their beliefs in the privacy of their homes. Although the Hombu was a fallback to a long ago time of Okinawa, and this includes the things of importance to them and their beliefs, we were never once directed to perform Shomen ni rei as they did. When we bowed...we weren't forced to ever bow to the Shomen...no...we'd bow to them, then they'd both walk to the corner and bow to the Shomen...which was in the corner and not in the direct front.

Guess what...after they both passed away, the Shomen...their Shomen, was dismantled and removed because it wasn't our belief, and we didn't want to emulate that anymore. Some have told me that I was in a Catch-22, and I'd strongly resent that because it's easy to disregard things that are not of Christ when you follow Him, and only Him.

The training that Mr. Wilson received in the MA was, imho, quite strange, to say the least. And as it has already been said, it was akin to a cult following in so many ways, and I'm just so glad that I was never in a MA school like that...not in Shindokan and not in TKD!!

When I can find part 2, I'll watch it, and if for no other reason(s), it'll simply be for the sake out of curiosity, and that alone.

OK...I now return you to your regular reading!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

There is always a choice and making that choice is up to the individual. The results of those choices good or bad is nobody else's fault. To be influenced, one has to be open and receptive to that influence.

Realizing and accepting this is the first and most important step towards being able to hold onto personal convictions; without blaming whomever or whatever is different for one's own lack of judgement. That is what the author/host of the video spectacularly fails to understand.

There are countless martial artists with a huge variety of personal beliefs who have trained for their entire lives under instructors who held their own beliefs. Yet the majority of these did not "convert" and kept their own. Consider for example, the first generation of Western students of East Asian experts who trained on location in China, Okinawa and Japan.

When one's personal beliefs or philosophy is firmly rooted, merely having an instructor who follows a different one will not be enough to change it. Especially if, as most people do, said instructor is very minimal and private on exposing such deeply personal thought. Even if the instructor is fairly open about it, as long as there is no preaching or other type of pressure to adopt whatever it is the instructor believes.

[Kusotare]

What I saw were whackjobs on both sides of the debate!

I'm not religious - so I can't comment on the accuracy of the "Jesus" stuff, but I've been a practicing martial artist for 30 plus years (most of those in very traditional Japanese styles) and I can honestly say I've never seen such nonsense practiced in any dojo I've trained in.

Interesting to note the distinct lack of "oriental" instructors involved. In fact - very little reference is given to lineage of style and I think that could be a contributing factor.

What I saw was definitely "Pseudo-Budo"!

As for the religious stuff!?

K.

[Hawkmoon]

Ignorance is wonderful thing, it accounts for much of the bad blood and bad feeling peoples of the world have for each other.

A documentary ages ago on TV tried to discuss two things without passion and only using facts to present a point simply stated as " ... one mans politics is another mans religion ..."

... charlatan ... cult leader ... take advantage of their gullibility.

The show made a point related to education, and how we look at the lack of education as a reason simply stated as 'we fear what we do not understand', a valid point I think.

Not so long ago to move faster than a horse could run was to suffocate. - an argument put forward to end the train and again at the advent of the motor car!

'If man was to fly he would have wings" - The Wright brothers had other ideas!!

" ...the world is flat!" we all know how that one ends.

Just as the earth is the center of the universe .......

With regards to the last two items, people were killed for thinking the other thing! Today there deaths are put down to folly and ignorance of others, so why would such thinking vanish because today it's April 2016?

Well, maybe because we are still ignorant today!

People are extremely intelligent, sadly society is nothing more than a bag full of pigeons and an angry cat chucked in for good measure!