Does lineage matter?

[Wastelander]

I was once told that "lineage only matters in music and martial arts." Of course, the person who told me was a martial arts instructor AND a music teacher . Lineage can be a very handy tool for tracing the history and development of a style over time. It can also be a decent indicator of the quality of the material up to a certain point. For example; we have historical records and first- and second-hand accounts of the skills possessed by masters like Matsumura, Itosu, Chibana, Motobu, etc. This means that we have a decent idea of the quality of material they knew, and would have tried to teach. That doesn't guarantee that the students picked it up very effectively, and that holds true all down the lineage. My sensei is very knowledgeable, with a high level of skill, and teaches effective material, but if I don't internalize it or put in the work, that doesn't help me all that much.

[sensei8]

"Who's your instructor?" asked MAist 'A'

"Joe Doe" answers MAist 'B'

"Never heard of him" replies MAist 'A'

"Who's your instructor?" retorts MAist 'B'

"John Smith" says MAist 'A'

"Never heard of him" says MAist 'B'

It's a real big world out there, and not everyone is known by everyone!!

No one here at KF, knows my Sensei, Yoshinobu Takahashi; he's only known by his students and those within the Shindokan circle.

No one here at KF, knows my TKD instructor, Young Ik Suh; he's only known by his students and those within that TKD governing body.

Both of them, were, imho, exceptional MAists; both as practitioners and instructors...TOP NOTCH!!

So quickly are MAists thrown under the bus because they're instructor isn't well known and respected as those that are passing judgment. I don't give a bent pin about that Takahashi and Suh aren't well known...they both existed...and I was both their student.

"It doesn't matter!!" Possibly, that'll be my answer from now on whenever I'm asked..."Who's your instructor?"

Edited February 25, 2016 by sensei8

[bushido_man96]

It does, and it doesn't. A great lineage doesn't guarantee a great career, nor does having a slim lineage mean you won't be prosperous and produce many great Martial Artists yourself. Its nice to have, but if you don't have it, don't fret. Work hard, work smart, and good things will come.

[Oshishinobu]

I come from a mixed background. I have mentioned a little of why in previous posts. For some time I was homeless in my early teens, I moved often when I lived with my parents ya as well. I never sought out a particular style, but looked for a certain something in a school. First encounter with martial arts was Bruce lee book "Tao of jeet kune do". And this started me on a path of wanting to seek knowledge and seek out what was effective for me and my life, I cared very little about style. Because of this I trained in different martial arts, and I also trained in some that were the same but were a different lineage however.

Now for me lineage is important to know, because not knowing where you come from is rough. I'm not a fan of feeling like you have to stick with a particular style or lineage of a system either, but for me at least I know where most of the things I practice came from. I find this important. I never knew my biological father, and I will always wonder what race, religion, and other things. I don't need to k ow and it won't effect me tremendously BUT it's an important thing.

Lineage is history, and an accurate history helps you know where you are going, because of where you have been (or in this case where the style has been)!

OSU!!

Ya can't just start a book in the middle ya know.

OSU!

[sensei8]

For the most, if not in its entirety, the average layperson doesn't have a minimum of an idea about MA lineage, nor do they truly care. Why? Proof is on the floor, and with that being said, the layperson just wants to learn from an instructor of quality. In short, the chosen instructor will be on the floor, and not that instructors instructor and/or the styles lineage.

People put a lot of faith in lineage, no matter the product, and certainly, no matter the reason(s). After all, in order to choose an instructor of quality, the search has to start somewhere. Why not with lineage? Fair enough!

However, that's not a guarantee of that instructor. Sure, it helps to sell the layperson as well as the seasoned MAist. Knowing the lineage might put some questions to rest, after all, the assumed lineage will appear in favor for success under that instructor as well as under that lineage. Nonetheless, that prospective instructor has to deliver, and deliver in a big way. Why a big way? Money and reputations are at risk for all parties concerned!

Just as rank has meaning within said governing body and style and dojo, outside of that circle, the lines are dim and quite uninterested; a shrug of contentment can't help itself at raising its head of doubt.

I tout with pride, that proof is on the floor, with such regularity, and that's only because I deeply believe in it wholeheartedly. The lineage is that line that's drawn in the sand, and it always ponders this one question...

Can you or can't you!!

Can you teach...or can't you??

Can you help me...or can't you??

Can you, as my instructor, walk away from your ego...or can't you??

Can you impart knowledge...or can't you??

A short list, but it's not a complete list. I can appreciate ones lineage, especially if ones part of a lineage that has MA legends as far as the eye can see; impressive, beyond all expectations. Sure, being part of a star filled MA lineage can't be denied, but again, those MA stars have those desired qualities, BUT...

Does your prospective instructor have those same qualities??

It is said that the apple doesn't fall from a tree, and in that same notion, one should expect those same qualities from that prospective instructor, as one would expect from the Master. But, who's the actual instructor? The chosen prospective instructor?? OR...the Master of that chosen prospective instructor?

Want lessons from the Master, than take lessons from the Master, and not from a student of the Master!! While the prospective instructor was sired from the Master, and this same prospective instructor is all that and a bag of chips, so goes the rumor, there's no guarantee that that fallen apple won't turn into applesauce.

It's a risk...taking lessons from anyone teaching the MA! Some pan out, while others don't...and that's because they can't...or they never could.

Edited February 25, 2016 by sensei8

[Luther unleashed]

a!

OSU!!

Ya can't just start a book in the middle ya know.

OSU!

Agh but you can. You just won't get the full feeling for the book and truly know where it's going.

[Oshishinobu]

a!

OSU!!

Ya can't just start a book in the middle ya know.

OSU!

Agh but you can. You just won't get the full feeling for the book and truly know where it's going. And i say why even try to read it then lol. I think some folks put way too much emphasis on linage *cough* whing chun *cough* lol but i think it has a meaning at least in just knowing where to look.OSU!

[Luther unleashed]

For the most, if not in its entirety, the average layperson doesn't have a minimum of an idea about MA lineage, nor do they truly care. Why? Proof is on the floor, and with that being said, the layperson just wants to learn from an instructor of quality. In short, the chosen instructor will be on the floor, and not that instructors instructor and/or the styles lineage.

People put a lot of faith in lineage, no matter the product, and certainly, no matter the reason(s). After all, in order to choose an instructor of quality, the search has to start somewhere. Why not with lineage? Fair enough!

However, that's not a guarantee of that instructor. Sure, it helps to sell the layperson as well as the seasoned MAist. Knowing the lineage might put some questions to rest, after all, the assumed lineage will appear in favor for success under that instructor as well as under that lineage. Nonetheless, that prospective instructor has to deliver, and deliver in a big way. Why a big way? Money and reputations are at risk for all parties concerned!

Just as rank has meaning within said governing body and style and dojo, outside of that circle, the lines are dim and quite uninterested; a shrug of contentment can't help itself at raising its head of doubt.

I tout with pride, that proof is on the floor, with such regularity, and that's only because I deeply believe in it wholeheartedly. The lineage is that line that's drawn in the sand, and it always ponders this one question...

Can you or can't you!!

Can you teach...or can't you??

Can you help me...or can't you??

Can you, as my instructor, walk away from your ego...or can't you??

Can you impart knowledge...or can't you??

A short list, but it's not a complete list. I can appreciate ones lineage, especially if ones part of a lineage that has MA legends as far as the eye can see; impressive, beyond all expectations. Sure, being part of a star filled MA lineage can't be denied, but again, those MA stars have those desired qualities, BUT...

Does your prospective instructor have those same qualities??

It is said that the apple doesn't fall from a tree, and in that same notion, one should expect those same qualities from that prospective instructor, as one would expect from the Master. But, who's the actual instructor? The chosen prospective instructor?? OR...the Master of that chosen prospective instructor?

What lessons from the Master, than take lessons from the Master, and not from a student of the Master!! While the prospective instructor was sired from the Master, and this same prospective instructor is all that and a bag of chips, so goes the rumor, there's no guarantee that that fallen apple won't turn into applesauce.

It's a risk...taking lessons from anyone teaching the MA! Some pan out, while others don't...and that's because they can't...or they never could.

I hear you. I'm not a pure stylist so I obviously don't think lineage is "The" first and foremost thought a student should have. I simply think history is important.

In your first paragraph you said "proof is on the floor"! This statement is EXTREMELY important for others, especially newer members/students to understand. I have seen some schools and instructors that make me cringe, well I'm not Bruce Lee so maybe some would cringe at some things I do haha, but really I have seen some bad stuff. I often think though, because they typically belong to a federation, what is the federation doing for you? I realize this thread is about lineage but many belonging to a federation are focused on lineage, and SOMETIMES not focused enough about what they are doing in their own facility.

Please don't misunderstand, there are benefits to the uniformity of a federation, but please don't let that mislead you (anybody not you) into thinking that a person is with a federation that they must be good, or as good as the last place I trained in that same federation. I watched with a frustrated eye when some assistant instructors taught something WRONG and I knew it was wrong, even in the same training facility standards can disintegrate.

In the end I agree, the "proof is on the floor" and one can expect the instructor to take them as far as they can go, not the lineage.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Luther unleashed

[Luther unleashed]

a!

OSU!!

Ya can't just start a book in the middle ya know.

OSU!

Agh but you can. You just won't get the full feeling for the book and truly know where it's going.

And i say why even try to read it then lol. I think some folks put way too much emphasis on linage *cough* whing chun *cough* lol but i think it has a meaning at least in just knowing where to look.OSU!

Agreed, sorry I think I messed the quote thing up, I'm not really good at it. Needs practice, I must have skipped to the middle of that book as well haha.

[Oshishinobu]

a!

OSU!!

Ya can't just start a book in the middle ya know.

OSU!

Agh but you can. You just won't get the full feeling for the book and truly know where it's going.

And i say why even try to read it then lol. I think some folks put way too much emphasis on linage *cough* whing chun *cough* lol but i think it has a meaning at least in just knowing where to look.OSU!

Agreed, sorry I think I messed the quote thing up, I'm not really good at it. Needs practice, I must have skipped to the middle of that book as well haha. no problem! yeah I will pepper my statement with this warning ,I am a absolute karate nerd lol. OSU!!