looking to research my own martial arts lineage - need help

[swhitney222]

Hi Everyone,

I am looking to do some research in finding out were my own line or lineage came from. definitely not doing this to put down or discredit anyone. I had a teacher that after 15 years of training with him and making it up the ranks of 2nd Black belt (in his version of American Kenpo not Ed Parkers Kenpo) I was banished. I never knew who taught him in what he said was American Kenpo. so if anyone knows of who taught Mike Agbay (3rd degree black belt in American Kenpo) his school is MJA Martial Arts in Sturbridge MA. I know he grew up in the Worcester MA area. We are not on speaking terms unfortunately and he would not tell anyone who taught him or how he acquired his rank. So like I said this is not to discredit or put down him, but to find out the history of were my own training originated from.

Thanks

Shawn

for all the questions that will soon follow here is a little more information.

1. yes knowledge is everything and when I started I was uneducated in what was and is martial arts. I started when I was 15.

2. the reason I stayed so long was it was a job needed money and mostly cause of the children I was teaching. so when he fired me and kicked me out that took care of that.

3. the reason he banished me, only from what I can see cause he gave me no answer as of why, was asking questions about his system/lineage, and his own mighty chip on his shoulder.

4. I am currently still training heavily with Dave Staples in Worcester MA, which can definitely further my skills in American kenpo, as well as Karim-ben Saunders in Tai Chi. (which both are not afraid to let everyone know who there instructors are)

5. looking for his teacher is not to prove that I have skill, I can fight no questions about that, what I am wondering is what he calls American Kenpo is not Ed Parker's American Kenpo, even though he uses all the principles, theories, patches and recommends reading all his books. he is not teaching the actual forms or techniques of American kenpo.

6. my training was very tailored, for example he has techniques up to orange that he created, which is just a mixture of basic moves put in logical order to defend against a certain attack. after orange we created our own techniques based on certain principles and motions that would have to logically make sense for self defense purposes.

7. Lastly the major reason why I started wondering was when I questioned him about a technique that I just completed, "how did my skill look". when he answered me with a questionable answer as if he was unsure, I knew he could not take me any further skill wise. and about a few months after that he fired me.

8. Mostly I am doing this for historical purposes for my own history. I know I am in a better martial arts place now.

for background on Michael Agbay, according to his stories most I believe are made up, born 1960 he started training around the 1977-1979 time frame says he got 1st degree in 1983 and 1987 3rd degree. supposedly his amercan kenpo teacher was African American and he lived in the Worcester MA area.

Hope this gives everyone a little more info, I am hoping that someone reads this that new of him or trained with him that could give me a little insite, my sources say it might be a guy named thane Collins but I cannot get ahold of him.

any information will be helpful.

[sensei8]

First off, welcome to KF, swhitney222; glad that you're here!!

I do NOT know anything about your former teacher, nor do I know anything about your lineage...sorry!!

In the 15 years that you were his student, he never ever once spoke about his teacher??

RED FLAG!!

Why?

Well, I suppose that it could be that he never had an instructor outside of books and the like. If he gave a name concerning his teacher, you and other students might ask a slew of questions, in that said teacher might say that he's never heard of your teacher.

The other RED FLAG is how you say that your teacher seemed unsure of himself in his answered when you press him for his advise when you asked him..."How does it look". An qualified instructor KNOWS, and will offer advice on many levels.

OK...you want the information about that teacher of the past, and you don't want to discredit him, even though you were fired without cause, well, then forget him and let it be a learning lesson, even though it'll bother you for some time.

Stick with your current instructor, even though you seem to be on guard about him as well because you're not 100% sure if what he's told you is honest, if at all. That might be that the former teacher has caused you to be speculative to a fault.

I do wish you the best of luck in your journey concerning your lineage, and that's important to you. No matter what you might be told that lineage isn't important, that's fine, but it's important to you, and that's enough.

[Montana]

I checked out his webpage at http://mjamartialarts.com/ which pretty much tells you nothing about his linage, anymore than you have already stated.

I watched his kenpo kata, and in my 25+ years of judging open tournament kata, including American Kenpo, his kata were the LEAST dynamic of ANY kenpo kata I've ever seen.

'

Yes, they are wearing AK patches, which I thought odd.

My best guess is that he himself got kicked out of the system for whatever reason but continued to teach what he knew, which is AK.

Interesting to note that ALL AK instructors I know would NEVER mix another system (Wing Chun) into their class. I like AK people in general, but they are VERY into the AK system and would never mix another system into it IMO.

Back in the good 'ol days, if someone from AK was kicked out of their system for one reason or other, yet they continued to represent themselves as AK (ie: patches, forms, even the names of the techniques), you'd soon have several AK black belts knocking on your door (home or dojo) and telling you to stop immediately, or they'd thrash you!

Yeah, no kidding.[/u]

[Spartacus Maximus]

lineage is one of the most important features of an instructor's profile. An honest and legitimate instructor will always be able and willing to speak about where and from whom the skills taught originate. It is never treated as a secret and even the lowest grade students will have heard mention the name of their teacher's teacher.

If an instructor is unable or unwilling to discuss this is surely a very bad sign. Consider that even frauds will claim a lineage and readily talk about who supposedly was their teachers.

What in the world could possibly be gained by this instructor by refusing to name his teacher? It hardly makes sense. Perhaps contacting others who were also trained by him might help. Maybe one of them will at least be willing to give a name. Another source might be high ranking kenpoists who might have heard of this fellow. Martial artists who have trained in the same city or area a long time usually have an idea of who their peers in the area are.

[bushido_man96]

It does sound kind of fishy. I think your best approach would be to start tracking down AK instructors and ask them if they know anything. If they don't know anything, ask them about any other instructors or even class mates they had that you could talk to. Who knows where you might turn something up.

Good luck in your search.

[Luther unleashed]

So first let me say welcome (although it carries more weight from sensei8 haha! Long post alert below...

There's a few issues here of course like why he fired you, why he won't speak confidently about his history, and what lineage have you learned!

Thanks to Montana for the post to the link, probably wouldn't have found it so easily without it. I do however, disagree with his assessment of his form, assuming we are watching the same video. There's only 3 videos that I see so I'm sure we are. I don't know ANY kenpo, let me say that. Well, I know a few like for example I learned an awesome arm break that I teach to this day, because the technique is nice, but that's about it. I do know that when I saw his form it looked crisp, each technique I saw him perform was just like the last, which is how a form should look. On top of that even if his form wasn't great, there are many great MA's that don't mix with forms as water doesn't mix with oil. I refuse to hold anybody to tightly based on forms. That being said I think his form looked pretty good, and as I said I don't mean that from a kenpo/kempo (really don't know the difference) standpoint, but from a martial artist standpoint. If any person here was to judge another system they would perhaps not know the form and/or technique BUT one could easy see any crispness or intent in the movements. To me, who again doesn't know kenpo, it looked ok. Could have had more snap but as a kung fu practitioner I can relate to arts that aren't supposed to have it, so I can't speak on that part style specific. Although, his website looked great to me as well, mine is much less friendly I think. Gave me some ideas of what I'd like to see in my own.

Anywho, to be honest if a student asked for my lineage and where I trained I'd tell him. I would also explain (although they should know) that I don't teach "traditional" Tang Soo Do, I teach traditional Tang Soo Do as a foundation but I integrate my other experiences into the art from martial arts I have taken going back to 1993. I do this because I'm not a stylist, I studied Bruce lee philosophies in my late teens and never looked back at being hard on myself about keeping too much emphasis on staying in one system. Maybe, big maybe, he has done similar? I didn't catch how old you were but if I add 15 years of training to you starting when you were 15 I'd guess your 30ish? Well, back in the day, even before my time more so "I'm 38" the word American was used often in front of martial arts like "American Karate" and it typically meant a bit of a freestyle art with a good deal of the instructors own personal experiences and techniques. You stated he did have some of his own curriculum. To me, it sounds like he went that route, which is essentially what I have done, except I'm open about it, even proud about it because I believe I have created a great program that can stand with other traditional schools, except he is not proud of it? It takes courage to say you do your own thing, because it sounds conceited. It sounds arrogant. Who am I, or who is anybody to creat a system? Well to me innovators do that, and I'm not knocking others who don't do it, just speaking highly of people who may have the courage. It sounds like he does this without the confidence required to take that next step though!

If I were you I wouldn't kill myself over the lineage, IF the curriculum is good and effective I would simply accept that you do a system called "American Kenpo" even if it isn't the same as other American kenpo systems. It doesn't have to be!

In a funny way your instructor looks like Alex from best of the best, with the ponytail and all, I was a fan growing up so more of a neat compliment to me then disrespect. Anyways, good luck to you in finding what your looking for, take care!

Here's a thought that just crossed my mind writing this...all techniques and systems have a purpose, even if it's not in fighting, it may be in strengthening or something else. As long as you can make it work. It is the practitioner that must master it, and where you get it form or learn it is of little importance, you make your art/technique/belt what it is, NOT your instructor. Have confidence in your art "American Kenpo" and move forward with enthusiasm.

It sounds like your in another kenpo school anyways so good for you.

[sensei8]

Yeah, I wouldn't care if it was Bozo MA, and that it was founded by Bozo himself...I'd want to learn it because my MA betterment must improve and if Bozo Sensei can help me in that regard, well, sign me up.

That being said, I'd discard the old instructor for the new instructor, but fair warned, if the new instructor turns out to be another dishonest instructor, well, I suppose I'll start looking for Goofy Sensei...next!!

One can stand of a fence of indecision quite along time because...the grass looks green on both sides.

[swhitney222]

So first let me say welcome (although it carries more weight from sensei8 haha! Long post alert below...

I didn't catch how old you were but if I add 15 years of training to you starting when you were 15 I'd guess your 30ish? Well, back in the day, even before my time more so "I'm 38" the word American was used often in front of martial arts like "American Karate" and it typically meant a bit of a freestyle art with a good deal of the instructors own personal experiences and techniques. You stated he did have some of his own curriculum.

Hi Luther,

your correct on my age I am 31, and I am not questioning his skill nor his system or style that he in fact completely created himself, nor am I questioning my own skill. lineage is not a huge factor to me I am just extremely curious on what influences in his training affected what he created. but that being why the hiding and deceptive tactics to prevent anyone from knowing his instructor(s). one could just be a good street fighter with no background and create a system themselves. As I grow in my art so does my need for history and knowledge. I guess when I began my training history and knowledge about the art wasn't as important, it was all about the physical skill. I would like to know a little about the past. to expand my knowledge.

just some of my thoughts.

thanks

[Luther unleashed]

So first let me say welcome (although it carries more weight from sensei8 haha! Long post alert below...

I didn't catch how old you were but if I add 15 years of training to you starting when you were 15 I'd guess your 30ish? Well, back in the day, even before my time more so "I'm 38" the word American was used often in front of martial arts like "American Karate" and it typically meant a bit of a freestyle art with a good deal of the instructors own personal experiences and techniques. You stated he did have some of his own curriculum.

Hi Luther,

your correct on my age I am 31, and I am not questioning his skill nor his system or style that he in fact completely created himself, nor am I questioning my own skill. lineage is not a huge factor to me I am just extremely curious on what influences in his training affected what he created. but that being why the hiding and deceptive tactics to prevent anyone from knowing his instructor(s). one could just be a good street fighter with no background and create a system themselves. As I grow in my art so does my need for history and knowledge. I guess when I began my training history and knowledge about the art wasn't as important, it was all about the physical skill. I would like to know a little about the past. to expand my knowledge.

just some of my thoughts.

thanks

I get what you are saying, I guess what I was trying to get at is you're going to kill yourself trying to figure it out because if you're really wanting to know but he will not tell you there's probably nobody else that will know either. I can't imagine a reason he would tell other people but not you so in essence nobody probably knows I get what you are saying, I guess what I was trying to get at is you're going to kill yourself trying to figure it out because if you're really wanting to know but he will not tell you there's probably nobody else that will know either. I can't imagine a reason he would tell other people but not you so in essence nobody probably knows lol.

I would just assume your history is from a guy that developed his own system for the most part, and move forward from there . I know that is not the most helpful thing to hear but probably the most realistic way to approach it !