Cross-train with Ju-Jitsu

[omnifinite]

I think we'd have far fewer competitors out there if there weren't usually rules set in place in competitions that mean to allow those fighters to walk back out at the end of the day.

 

UFC 1-3, Vale Tudo 1-5 had no rules (eye gouges and groin kicks were legal), and people walked out alive.

 

What, no ruptured organs or neck breaks? No hidden knives or guns pulled? No buddies from the audience rushing in to help? No ambushes outside the ring? Did local law enforcement waive the consequences of deadly force for these events?

And if some of those arts don't do well in structured competition... well... I don't think that really bothers them

 

It does and did bother them because traditionalist began to out lash against the sport (NHB/MMA) because their arts and students (Karate, TKD, Kung-Fu) were being beaten badly by hybrid and modern styles.

 

The truth of the matter is if you can't defend yourself in a fighting sport with rules, then how will you defend yourself on the streets with no rules?

 

Oh, but wait, most people on this board base their training on Theory, and since their theory works in there heads and in the dojo with willing people then it must work in a real fight

 

I hope you enjoy your "theory" based training Good Luck!

 

That's part of my point. There are many ways in which competing is similar to training in theory. You go into it knowing you're only going to fight a single person who isn't fighting you to kill you (and vice versa), can't sneak up on you to begin with, has no environment to utilize (dirt, brickwalls, bright sun, darkness) has no hidden weapons, no friends to back him up, and won't come after you or one of your family members a week later to "even the score". Intent is everything.

 

Additionally, the fighters have reputations to protect. They have to fight in a certain manner so that, to an outside observer, their wins are obviously achieved through skill rather than luck or "cheating". If they have to resort to actions seen as "cheating", people assume they don't have what it takes to win any other way. There are social politics involved. I don't think anything resembling fairplay is a luxury you're going to enjoy in a real situation. They'll drive over you with a truck if they have the opportunity.

 

From the experiences you've mentioned having in the past I would think you'd agree with me there. Real combat situations are ugly, brutal, savage, heart-in-your-throat vomit-inducing nightmares where even when highly trained you're lucky to just scrape by. I can't speak from experience equal to yours there, but it's something I try very hard to keep in mind for my own safety.

 

Do I think the typical martial artist has what it takes to survive that sort of situation? No.

 

Do I think I have what it takes? No. Hopefully someday.

 

Would I last in any of those competitions at my current level? Nope.

 

Do I think competition accurately mirrors reality? It's getting there, but no. Thinking it does will get you hurt in a lot of the same ways theory will. Both involve altering reality to serve an agenda.

 

Combat arts will always have theory in them. You can't practice maiming/killing people (and if someone wanted to they really shouldn't be taught how). There are some things that just aren't testable until you really have to use them. The old arts were created in an environment where the singular goal was putting your opponent in the ground, simply because that was your opponent's singular goal as well. It's easier to kill someone than it is to almost kill someone. If you're trained to do it, it's easier to crush someone's windpipe than it is to gauge how much (or little) force you have to apply to it to win a match and leave the person in one piece.

 

Then there's the issue of just plain shoddy training (the older an art is the more time it's had to get mangled and warped and watered down). I don't know what can be done about that. I doubt a lot of today's karate and kung fu looks quite like it used to. I wish it did.

 

So for a lot of those reasons I do think arts like BJJ have inherent advantages in one-on-one pain-compliance competition.

 

But to the battle-hardened people who created some of these older arts, we're all just tourists.

 

My humble opinion... which is threatening to become a rant... I'll stop now.

[Thai_Kick]

What, no ruptured organs or neck breaks? No hidden knives or guns pulled? No buddies from the audience rushing in to help? No ambushes outside the ring? Did local law enforcement waive the consequences of deadly force for these events?

 

HELLO...

 

It's a sport!

It's easier to kill someone than it is to almost kill someone

.

 

Is it? Can you really kill someone? What would drive you to do that?

 

Many Martial Artists talk way too much smack about killing someone or breaking necks? I would bet EVERYTHING I HAVE that NO ONE on this board would have the drive or guts to kill another human, and that includes me as well.

Real combat situations are ugly, brutal, savage, heart-in-your-throat vomit-inducing nightmares where even when highly trained you're lucky to just scrape by.

 

I agree 100% with you, but what gets me upset is that many people on this board have illusions that street fights are easy, clean, and simple and they have all these theories and combo's stuck in their heads of what their going to do to defend themselves (example: Knife attacks)

[Kensai]

We can only train against an "attack". The dojo is not real life. We all know that, UFC is not real life. Lets not confuse them. A MT boxing match is not REAL life, although my hat go's off to there dedication. But its not real. I dont think anyone on here said that they would want to kill anyone.

 

But I do stand by the belief that it is easier to kill someone than not. For example, from the way you talk Thai_Kick, you are probably pretty strong. Now without pads, gloves and shin guards you could kill someone in a "real" situation, if the choice was between you or them. I would imagin that it would be harder for you to show restrait in the real life situation. I know that I would have trouble doing so.

 

Real life situations are not easy. I have not been in any, but I am sure they are. I am sure at 17 you are a seasoned street fighter...... dont make me laugh.

 

The key to being a good martial artists, and what is promoted in the great traditional styles, is a free mind. We learn the basics, we do combo's and locks and throws. But I might not be attacked like that in real life, but I am going to adapt. For example, if I was to fight you Thai_Kick for real, I have not trained against kicks, does that mean when you kick me I just give up? HELL NO, I apply my mind, not so much thinking about it, but using what I know and react naturally. (Disclaimer:Not that I want to fight you Thai_Kick)

 

As for Chin Na, I have some documentation in writing of real fights using it, for reference please read:

 

Xing Yi Quan Xue by Sun Lu Tan

 

ISBN 0-86568-185-6

 

Chinese Gung Fu The Philosophical Art of Self Defence by Bruce Lee

 

ISBN 0-89750-112-8

 

Introduction to Shaolin Kung Fu by Wong Kiew Kit

 

ISBN 1-874250-21-9

 

Practical Chin Na A Detail Analysis of the art of seizing and locking byZhao Da Yuan

 

ISBN 0-86568-175-9

 

Ba Gua Hidden KNowledge in the Taoist Internal Martial arts by Liu Xing Han

 

ISBN 1-55643-276-3

 

The Power of internal martial arts Combat Secrets of Ba gua Tai Chi and Hsing I

 

ISBN 1-55643-253-4

 

Best Aikido : The Fundamentals (Detailed account of Aikido Sensei Vs Mauy Thai boxer in Challenge match)

 

ISBN 4-7700-2762-1

 

I think thats enough examples of real life encounters with thugs and muggers from the best of the best. Does this mean they are better than the modern ones. Nope. Does this mean because these martial arts have not been on TV they dont work. Nope. Its just some facts for you.

 

All the best on your reading

 

Take Care

 

Chris.

[Kensai]

Thai_Kick, here is a good clip.

 

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/video/Isoyama_1983.asp

 

Take Care.

[Thai_Kick]

The dojo is not real life. We all know that, UFC is not real life. Lets not confuse them. A MT boxing match is not REAL life,

 

I agree it's not real life, BUT unlike the dojo, UFC and MT are real hand-to-hand fights. In a dojo you have a willing participant that will not react negatively after an attack or when techniques are performed. In UFC and MT your opponent is going to hurt you as bad as he can so that he can win the fight, and you are forced to defend yourself and fight back, this is a real fight.

[ZeRo]

ive said this once before we're not willing in the dojo! we learn a technique, ok, then the opponent is willing. BUT thats why we do randori/grappling/sparring, we're not willing then! how many people do you know that would just let you put an arm bar on them? do you like being choked?

[omnifinite]

HELLO...

 

It's a sport!

 

That's my point

It's easier to kill someone than it is to almost kill someone

.

 

Is it? Can you really kill someone? What would drive you to do that?

 

Many Martial Artists talk way too much smack about killing someone or breaking necks? I would bet EVERYTHING I HAVE that NO ONE on this board would have the drive or guts to kill another human, and that includes me as well.

 

I mean physically easier. Nothing but the most dire of circumstances would make me want to do such a thing... never would it be 'easy'. I don't know about the rest of the board... it wouldn't surprise me too much if there's someone wandering this board who's been forced to kill another human being in the past, but yeah you could be right.

I agree it's not real life, BUT unlike the dojo, UFC and MT are real hand-to-hand fights. In a dojo you have a willing participant that will not react negatively after an attack or when techniques are performed. In UFC and MT your opponent is going to hurt you as bad as he can so that he can win the fight, and you are forced to defend yourself and fight back, this is a real fight.

 

The UFC is some of the best fighters in the world and a dojo is full of people who are still learning, so I'd hope the UFC would be much more brutal. Supposedly by black belt the really good schools are doing unwilling fully-resisting attacks in the dojo. It's their loss if they aren't. But I think there's still a very significant difference in the intent of a competitor and the intent of a real life attacker.

 

I think we're both kinda saying the same thing . I just don't think that traditional arts aren't about real life combat. There are just a lot of mediocre, corrupt, oblivious, all-flash schools out there giving what they do the same name.

 

Plus many older arts were born in a time when people wanted the fighting to stop. So the desire for peace is a component of the teaching. That may be part of why many of the most powerful martial artists out there just don't see a point in competing. Hell, that's part of their power.

 

And it all depends on what we desire out of martial arts of course. Desiring to excel in a sport is fine. Desiring self-defense is fine. But the two might not be entirely compatible. I don't think that automatically makes one of the two "inferior".

[Kensai]

Here here omnifinite! Spoken with true heart.

 

Take Care.

[omnifinite]

Best Aikido : The Fundamentals (Detailed account of Aikido Sensei Vs Mauy Thai boxer in Challenge match)

 

ISBN 4-7700-2762-1

 

Wow, I'd love to read that account, Kensai. Do you think it's squirreled away online somewhere? I doubt my friendly neighborhood library has many Aikido books .

[Kensai]

If its anywhere online, try Amazon.com, enter the books name and you can see SOME of the pages. It might be on one of them.

 

Take Care.